I asked the OP if he had surveyed the property for his “old client”. He hasn’t answered that question.
I can’t believe that anyone would report another surveyor to the board without doing a survey. That is akin to an MD accusing another MD of malpractice without examining the patient.
Rant over and I hope everyone had a great day. Spring has finally arrived in Alaska.
I advised my client to notify his neighbor to the north that his Surveyor had created a 2.2 foot jog at the fence corner and he would have to construct his new fence to his Surveyor's pin and not to my client's fence corner to avoid trespassing on the neighbor to the west.
I don't understand why this advise is given. No one is obligated to accept the results of any retracement survey. It's a certified opinion, not a court order. We've all seen survey pins that were never used. I once found a survey that marked the center of section using the sign of the cross 40 feet from old fences. 30 years later the owners involved still used the old fences. Everyone is happy. I certainly didn't tell them they had to use it.
@fairbanksls I have to disagree. After nearly five years of investigations and pro review, I can tell you with certainty a survey is rarely required. Violations causing harm are generally glaring, many to the point they shock the viewer. I used to be allowed site visits where I could gather evidence but I never surveyed a property in support of a prosecution. It simply isn't necessary.
That being said there are a few things to remember. The vast majority of violations I discovered were handled with a phone call or office visit. Approaching fellow professionals with respect had an impact and solved most problems. On rare occasions a frequent flyer would file something that had to be fixed. Even those cases started with a meeting to encourage corrective action. Those who dug their heels in went to hearing. Every single one of those lost, and many are now off the streets. Again, I did not re-survey once.
That being said there are a few things to remember. The vast majority of violations I discovered were handled with a phone call or office visit. Approaching fellow professionals with respect had an impact and solved most problems.
Have to agree with this 100%.
I don't see getting the board involved here,,,,,,,,,yet.
This can almost always be solved how you're presenting it once the emotions are turned down. That should be accomplished between the two surveyors. This is a learning experience for the newby....... I'm guessing.
Protect the client; part of that is figuring out how to keep attorneys out of the process.
Why wouldn't the land owner pull out the erroneous pin?
While, as a surveyor doing such a thing seems extreme, if I was the landowner, I would certainly do so. He is defending his land by removing what he sees as erroneous information. Could he get sued over it? Sure. But without proof he removed it, what could happen?
I have dealt with conflicts where the one side or the other removes pins they do not agree with. Even with lawyers involved, nothing ever comes of it (criminal or civil), unless a judge specifically says to not remove a certain corner.
Regarding the board...
As long as there isn't fraud, lack of care, or absolute refusal to answer the phone, I am not sure what a board should do. Being an ass isnt really against any rules.
That said, if the surveyor was in error, I mean really in error, it seems that he would be open to liability regarding every landowner affected by his survey. That alone makes me answer every phone call and take every single one of them seriously.
IMHO.... Creating discord where peace & harmony once existed, by putting a pin OVER a fenced line of occupation, ignoring an existing monument, and refusing to discuss the differences of opinion as to location and the facts that each surveyor relied upon in order to form their different opinions, is deficient in the standard of care one expects when hiring a Professional Surveyor.
Without knowing the individuals involved, or hearing both sides of the discussion, I have to assign blame to those of us that mentor the younger generation of surveyors and recommend them for licensure. We, as a community of professionals, need to teach the up & comers this aspect of the profession while we teach the legal principals, how to weigh the evidence, right along with everything else we drum into their brains, before we sign off on a recommendation for licensure.
Communication, as hard as it may be to get started, is the solution, and will probably lead to mutual respect in the end.
Rant over.....
@holy-cow in my opinion diging only 2' for corner evidence is well within the normal standard of care. I would have proportioned hundreds of more corners than I have if I didn't dig 2'.
@dougie if that's all we do we are not meeting munuum standards in many states.
For example:
The NSPS model standards adopted by reference in Alaska says we must "Compare and analyze all of the data gathered and reach a proffesional opinion as to the most probable location of the corners of the property".
Massachusetts surveors are required to "Make interpretations of the record and physical evidence and draw conclusions based on the laws of evidence".
Texas Manual of Practice (I know not quite the same): "The boundary lines and corners of the subject property shall be determined in accordance with current case law, statutes, and Texas Board of Proffesional Engineers and Land Surveyors"
Clients want boundary surveys to tell them where the boundary is, not a list of evidence.
I have to assign blame to those of us that mentor the younger generation of surveyors and recommend them for licensure.
Perhaps the person(s) that recommend them for licensure should have their name listed with the registrant?
"Hey, Jim, what were you thinking recommending that guy?"
Take the young surveyor out for lunch and a beer. Show him the light or lite. Whichever.
@adam Now that can solve lots of problems for sure. This is a good thread. I not being licensed yet but under one was retracing one that had some discrepancies. I called the surveyor up and just asked what am I doing wrong. I cannot seem to follow this and I am trying to learn. We talked and he looked over his data and said son you are not wrong I made a mistake and you should go with what you have and I will fix my issue. I could have been wrong and learned something. I always assume I am wrong first.
Agreed. But, stating you dug by hand in a county road (surfaced with gravel) to a depth of two feet over the entire area of a circle having a radius of 30 FEET will not be accepted as truthful when you are accusing someone else of wrongdoing.
@fairbanksls I thought I had stated I surveyed for an old Client. I found all the pins relatively close to their record position. The original survey was done in 1970. I assume the original Surveyor had an EDM, but from retracing many of his other surveys he was a little inaccurate with reducing his slope distances to horizontal. Many of that era never even bothered to reduce their measurements. Newbie relied on a corner that had been set by another newbie, that was not part of this Subdivision. How he determined how to set his pin is undeterminable. It appears he projected the record bearing from the east to intersect the north-south line. All is immaterial in my opinion because an unbent pin is at the fence corner in the same condition as all other three pins.
Its Spring here one day Winter the next.
I suspect the new surveyor had a measurement that didn’t fit the existing pin something set a new one.
It seems like I was at a seminar that said surveyors, courts, judges and lawyers don’t validate our surveys that land owners do. When they see our corners and use the pins and accept them that validates our work. In this case if both land owners don’t like the pin then they should pull it. It hardly ever works though since one side feels they are losing ground.
