Surveying without a License ??ÿ
In CA, architects are allowed to perform measurement work (e.g. topo, layout) pertaining to their projects.?ÿ They aren't allowed to do any boundary surveying, but pretty much anything else involving their design work is allowed.
"licensed Planner"
I'm not nit picking or attacking, just curious if it's a license or a certification. I've never heard of a license for planning, and there's lots I haven't heard about yet nor learned about either.
I'm always wondering why we(unlicensed Techs/crew chiefs)need to be under surveyors to do layout work save the liability insurance pool the lawyers can dip into if someone makes a mistake egregious or just simple and unexpected.
if the company building the structures wants to risk it all and save money, and the engineer in charge is ok with it, is that an option for people to follow if they want to do so?
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interesting Sunday morning discussion here for sure.
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My firm was in depositions last week because of a mess involving multiple violations concerning a house build. They didn't use a surveyor. There are many issues to consider going from paper to ground.?ÿ
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In most States, PE's can do all sorts of survey work as long as it does not tie to boundaries.?ÿ Surveying as a licensed profession in the US grew out of the Engineering profession.?ÿ Engineers design functional structures that last for centuries.?ÿ Architects design beautiful structures.
but the question is?ÿ
is there a legal statute that is required?
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the inspection is done for safety, and tied to engineering, and architecture is woven Into that, but say the build is 100' in all directions from anything boundary easement and utilities related.
do you need a surveyor to get it laid out or are they just pulled in for increased liability pool and for the reliability of their professional experience and ability?
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I forgot to add...
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Potential THRAC?ÿ alert here...
@jitterboogie Most everywhere you do not have to have a surveyor to lay out construction. Anyone working for the construction company can do the layout. A surveyor is only required for the portion of the layout relative to the boundary.
No, this wasn't about a legal surveying principle, this was about setting a building that violated the HOA restrictions.?ÿ
Point being that it's one thing to get some building plans together, it's another thing to put them on the ground from the plan set.
There is no rule/law stopping a builder or owner from doing it all themselves.?ÿ?ÿ
And I don't think there should be, but if you're asking questions how it all works,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe you need more help than a chat room can give.?ÿ
@lurker?ÿ
thanks for the feedback, I figured it was something like that, and I always tell people when I'm laying out the points, I am only here for your attorneys' grace in the event I screw it up.
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it was really kind of a sardonic attempt at a rhetorical question.
no one took the bait.
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I know several contractors who have or are adjusting their toolsets to include being able to gather and set this kind of info on the fly.?ÿ On your own, without a solid understanding of land surveying processes and procedures, even if you have an ability to avoid the potential legal consequences, I would recommend on every site you want to have this access, that you have a licensed surveyor set your "control" or "baseline".?ÿ This will typically be several points on the ground (monumented) and given to you in CAD or as a text file, on a coordinate system (standard or locally generated) that have tight correlation to the configuration of the legal boundary of the property.?ÿ It sounds like for your work you'd also want vertical control, where one or more of those points have been given a standard or locally generated site elevation (benchmark).
Once you have that one time on any sized site, gathering and setting stuff with a total station or GPS is pretty straightforward and can save you time and money (not having to call them out again) and, better, give you more flexibility and control over your design even as it develops.?ÿ As you move about you can easily use this set control to generate new control points for your use throughout the site.
As others have said, a very accurate robotic total station (need line of site between points and takes a little longer to set up) in good used condition is around $15K plus rods, prisms n such.?ÿ A 'pretty accurate' or 'usually-plenty-good-enough-for-that-kind-of-thing" GPS system (depending on your access to CORS/VRS) in good used condition will be $8-$10K (no base station) / $20K+/- (with base station).
But I would definitely always have a PLS set your control for every site.?ÿ In time, that will probably save you from any # of very expensive build errors.?ÿ I do see contractors cutting that corner and usually getting away with it, but when it goes south, it goes south hard.
I think it sure says a lot about how we've become kinder and gentler....?ÿ I can imagine how a post like this would have been shredded in years past.?ÿ ?ÿMaybe it's because we are all so dang busy, we wouldn't mind someone helping out, no matter how potentially short sighted.?ÿ?ÿ
Perhaps I have a few loose screws but I think it's f'ing fantastic that a professional from another discipline is interested in the profession. When it comes to building construction, the more you know the better you are at it. This applies to Architects, Structural Engineers, Surveyors, and pretty much everything else. The catch is that few are neither smart enough nor have the capacity to learn everything. It really becomes a team effort.
Same as mentioned with CA, here in Canada (and in every province I've ever been), we don't require a professional surveyor to lay out an actual building. We'll start with the benchmarks created by a professional surveyor. A professional surveyor will sometimes come to check/verify locations. Sometimes they do such to "land surveying" tolerances which leads to a lot of disputes. I think that you'd only have full time "professional" surveyors on a larger civil project. Construction Layout and Land/Civil Surveying share similar principles/techniques/equipment, but they end up being quite a bit different. Anyone jumping from one to the other without adjusting the way they do things will fail. And therefore, I think it's common practice NOT to have a professional land surveyor do construction layout. I'm certain many are good at both but they are different jobs really.
We are currently working on a project where the architect didn't understand how to set out a building nor bridge the gap between the benchmarks and the building itself. An architect whom understood even just the basic fundamentals of surveying would have been worth their weight in gold.
I personally think that there is plenty of potential value for an architect to learn about surveying. Especially if they go on to work in construction management or start their own small architecture firm.
@keithscadservices?ÿ ?ÿI'm all for cross-training, and an architect that's interested in the survey world is a rare bird, indeed.?ÿ ?ÿ
... here in Canada we don't require a professional surveyor to lay out an actual building.
That is largely true in the US as well. Any contractor can place his formwork without the benefit of an LS, and they often do. But he cannot certify to the location of said forms relative to the property boundaries.?ÿ So... like in the old Fram commercials ... you can pay me now, or pay me later.
but is there a base set of equipment and processes for this?
Yes, many.
What are the terms and processes I should start learning?
Many of them as well.
What type of equipment will get me where I am going?
A lot of them, some will be cheaper, others will be expensive, sometimes for us surveyors it takes a while to come up with the right package/formula for equipment/specific job ratio. You can find used equipment and data collectors and play with those in the field, given you know some basic field survey procedures to set up your equipment. You can also play with the stakeout functions of the data collector to see how data points are stakeout in the field (though I believe point staking is an art by itself due to the many different ways and tools used to 'present' a stakeout point...).
Now for the long answer: I agree with what has been suggested, either consider taking a technical course in field surveying process at a local learning institution, or consider visiting the job sites when the surveyors are present. You can learn a lot watching them and occasionally asking questions about the process and equipment. If I were an Architect, I wouldn't mind being the rodman for a day or two and the instrument man for a week or so, as you'll learn a lot hands on by doing this and appreciate the hard work it takes to perform field surveying.
Next, when it comes to data processing, data adjustment, dissemination and CAD processes to come up with a DTM file, it involves (duh) a lot of knowledge, both for field and office procedures as well as software knowledge and procedures. All with different degrees of learning curves to ultimately come up with a CAD file certifying that is in tolerance to the objective of the project (nothing is absolutely error free, not even by the most experienced licensed surveyor) so it can be THEN used for design purposes. I believe with this part, it will take you quite a while to fully grasp and employ the processes (months, years?). Many people dedicate their lifetime to these tasks and even so are prone to make errors, costly errors, as in lawyers involved. This is the part where I think your question is open-ended and would be the equivalent of me asking if you in a public forum if you can teach me how to practice Architecture so as to use it on my design surveys.
But without going on a tangent, field wise, I believe you should tag along with the surveyor on the site, learn as much as you can, and finally give out clear instructions of what you want for your design needs. Office wise, I suggest you join a surveying firm and work there for a while before going solo to collect basic field points and data processing to have a good CAD file for design. Otherwise you'll incur in a lot of time, budget and errors to get a working survey CAD file for design purposes.
