Thanks for your reply. I misread your comment regarding njit being part-time. And in truth, I had an AAS and it took me 3 additional years to complete my BSET there while working full-time. The classes outside of surveying like computer science/programming didn't directly benefit me from purely a surveying perspective but did help regarding other areas like photogrammetry, AEC software and GIS.
There are two different questions to look at, not mutually exclusive.
1. How does one best prepare for a career in surveying? There are so many different ways to approach this. What advice would I give someone just starting out in surveying. Generally, I would advise them to pursue some form of education and begin getting experience, either part-time or full-time as soon as possible. The education part might be my own inherent bias.
2. How does a state best ensure that the an individual is minimally qualified to practice land surveying? This is different state by state. State Board's with input from professionals and professional orgs help develop these requirements. If education is part of the requirement, accreditation boards help ensure the programs meet technical education requirements. Having both an experience and education requirement best ensures that minimum qualifications are met.
An additional edit - I applaud everyone here who got there LS by either route and it can be argued, each path is very hard. There is no difference we are all LS, PLS... I'd also argue that being on this board shows passion for surveying as well as dedication! Keep up the good work.
Chris
I wish that I could see all that you wrote while replying one by one on your points.
I do this by copying and pasting the post to a text editor. Then click reply and then click show formatting button. Click the blockquote button. Cut and paste the point that you are responding to into the block next to the quote. Now add your response below the quote block. Wendell may know a better way, but this is the best way I've come up with.
I wish that I could see all that you wrote while replying one by one on your points.
I do this by copying and pasting the post to a text editor. Then click reply and then click show formatting button. Click the blockquote button. Cut and paste the point that you are responding to into the block next to the quote. Now add your response below the quote block. Wendell may know a better way, but this is the best way I’ve come up with.
Well now. I just learned something new they didn't teach me in college. 😃
"The fact of the matter is that there is no studying to the test and no conversations that are going to help you..."
I did not state that the conversations were helping individuals. I pointing out there were individuals standing around discussing (having conversations) their past failed attempts (sometimes more than one) and how, since their last attempt, they had studied just enough in a specific subject area because it covered X percent of the exam and their previous attempt on the exam failed by X/3 percent and they thought that was the area they needed to gain points in. They were hoping this action might get them just into a passing score. Since the percentages for various sections were published in the front of the study prep guides, people were in fact worrying about the larger percentage sections more than the lower percentage sections and then finding out they actually needed to concentrate at least some energy into understanding the areas that offered fewer percent of the exam content. The approach of trying to gain a passing score based on the percentages of various content areas is studying to the exam
and occurs on any general knowledge, multiple choice exam which has
pre-determined percentages for each content area for various subjects. I am not faulting
anyone for using this approach. To some extent, it seems sensible. But, it only works if the test taker is lucky and in the smaller percentage subject area that they did not study for or already know well, they just happen to know or can guess correctly the very few questions posed on the exam in that content area. In my opinion, this method comes across as playing the odds instead of knowing the subject.
Studying to the exam is not the same as failing and then honing areas where you found you needed to know more. In one case people have the specific purpose of minimizing the knowledge they have to gain and in the other case people are finding that they need to know more about an area and studying to gain that knowledge.
I see where you are going with studying to the exam and I see that as a dangerous approach for both the candidate and the profession. My approach to being prepared for the exam was completely different.
As I have stated time and time again, I do not have any degree in land surveying but I can assure you that I put in the same or more study time as anybody with a four year degree. My daily routine consisted of getting up at 4 AM, grabbing a cup of coffee and studying until 7 AM, seven days a week, when possible. This worked out well as when I went to work, I could bounce things off of my two licensed mentors.
Taking the exam based only on ten years of experience is not going to prepare anybody for the exam, especially in a Colonial state when questions arise on issues in PLSS states. My goal was to be well rounded in as many areas as I could so that, to a high extent, I would be prepared to have the best answer for any question that popped up.
Some are making the argument that being degreed leads to a higher passing rate but I take an opposing view on that. If you want to pass the exam, no matter who you are, you have to spend the time in the books. The structured educational environment is not for everybody, just like the office environment isn't.
Some are making the argument that being degreed leads to a higher passing rate but I take an opposing view on that.
You certainly have a right to take an opposing view, but the statistics published by NCEES a few years ago indicate that nationally there is around a 20% higher pass rate for first time bachelor's degree (EAC/ETAC/ANSAC-ABET programs) holders in the FS exam and about a 13% higher pass rate on the PS for bachelor's degree holders in relation to all other test takers.
All other test takers lumps other bachelor degree holders, associates degree holders, and experience based applicants together. Unfortunately there was no direct comparison between bachelor's (engineering and tech accredited degrees) versus bachelor's (all others) versus associate's versus experience based applicants' pass rates. I wonder if NCEES has that data, because it would be interesting to see.
The degree showing a higher pass rate seems pretty well established. The question then becomes is the higher pass rate worth the implementation of the requirement - which should be a state's decision to make within their own borders.
I do not disagree with you that individual drive is an important part of success, but arguing that obtaining a degree does not lead to a higher passing rate runs contrary to the evidence.
Anecdotally, in my home state we have gone from a low 30% pass rate to a low 70% pass rate since the four year degree requirement was enacted - with similar applicant numbers. A 40% increase in pass rate seems pretty high to be just chance that all of the current applicants are super motivated to self study instead of that the degree they earned made a vast difference in being prepared for the exam.
It varies individually whether self-study or a degree in surveying best prepares one for the exam. Having a degree requirement, experience and passing NCEES/State exams better ensures minimum qualifications are met than leaving out one of them. Most professions have added degree requirements for licensing, not because they help the students to pass tests, but to add another factor of ensuring minimum qualifications through a formal education.
Speaking just for me, when I started surveying I read every survey book, literally word for word. The other guys would go in for coffee and there I was in the truck studying. Took me four years to go from rodman to RLS, and I passed first time. Later I realized a degree in accounting would be a good backup plan if surveying folded, so I surveyed during the day and went to university in the evening.
I realize the discussion is about a surveying or related degree, but my business would not be where it is without all of the finance, law, economics, and marketing I learned at night. A degree does make a difference.
