My take on the current crop of potential candidates that are in college today to become surveyors is that most of them hope to never see themselves in the rough parts of the outdoors that most of the surveying is actually being accomplished.
3 of the 4 that came to me for mentoring did not last very long because they thought they would begin at the top in charge of other people.
They did not want to know the fundamentals, they wanted to run GPS and do office work.
The rest of it, digging for monuments after clearing off enough brush to find the ground was not what they wanted to do.
They had never had to do that before and were not gonna start after having a BS degree in business or accounting.
IMVHO, basic surveying is the hands on part of surveying with no electronics involved.
There are many more hours of class that will teach all that modern technology.
0.02
The REASON to use transits, and tapes, and such like, is to teach retracement. Retracement, where you miss a monument by 0.18', and you draw a plat, showing the "errror", and holding the computed point, 0.18' away, is generally the fruit of failure to USE these old brass instruments, and steel tapes.
This kind of thing shows a failure to understand history.
N
There is a curriculum already in place. I am supposed to be THE hands-on guy. Construction math is a prerequisite so they have that going for them.
Dallas Morlan, post: 412879, member: 6020 wrote: You should have email with several PDF files attached. The files are large and the message may not get through.
I did get your email, Dallas. Thanks a million.
I think the main thing is for them to be able to set up an instrument, read a rod, turn angles, measure distances and take good notes.
The final part of the class involves getting data into Civil 3D either manually or with a data cable straight from the gun. (I'm taking from this that the gun has on-board data collection.)
I'm no stranger to a classroom and I've taught quite a few people to operate the instrument. These students need to be out on the ground measuring and setting up and tearing down. There will be five (5) evaluations for the semester.
Thanks for all the input. I'll report back after I meet the new crew.
Roadhand, post: 412840, member: 61 wrote: I do not disagree with the importance of knowing the fundamentals, but you Survey GODS (Good Ole Day Syndrome) need to realize that he has a finite amount of time to educate these people that are paying a price for the class to make themselves employable. I would touch on it but by no means make it the focus of the class. #2pennies
Yeah, that's one of the toughest compromises. How much time on producing product and how much on understanding product. I always tended toward the understanding part. I usually lost that argument. But we had to comply with rules for certain degrees. There could be, and are, job preparation programs that can concentrate on production. I think that's a good thing. Different strokes for different folks.
My dad hired a couple guys who had "surveying" experience in the past. I remember thinking, what kind of surveying did you do? They had no idea even how to hold a plumb bob or what a backsight is. When you hire a new guy with no experience, you don't let him yank out a robot and slap it on a rickety set of legs and let go. You give him a plumb bob and a sight pole and MAYBE a half a roll of flagging and some nails. You work your way up to instrument. I've got 15 weeks (3 hours once a week) to get them (7 students) operating a level and getting consistent results in a level loop, operate a total station to gather point data to be entered into Civil 3D for another set of consistent results and instill in them an appreciation of and a desire for a career in surveying. This is but one step on their journey.
I've had to teach teenagers to run gun. My two nephews, my daughter, my sister (not a teenager) and even my newest helper. This fella just graduated high school and this is his first job. He is my instrument man and was from day one. He never dropped it and any time there's a problem, he speaks up.
I'll have them "raising for a red" and "rockin' it" in no time.
Brand new equipment. Topcon Total Station and Topcon level. New rod, range pole, prism, plumb bob (sans string or gammon reel) and a new tripod. One tripod, one level and one total station and 7 students.
As there is already a curriculum in place you are somewhat stuck. You will do the best you can within those constraints, I am sure.
If I had the freedom to start an entirely new introduction to boundary surveying class there would be no use of instruments for at least the first six weeks. We would focus on what surveying really is, how it has grown from Egyptian monuments getting flooded by the Nile to imaginary things called coordinates. We would discuss real estate practices, title insurance practices, lending practices and begin discussion on the law relevant to our location in the world. We would take field trips to two or more nearby courthouses or other physical repositories of the information they will need to work with daily and point out how each repository is similar, yet different, from the others.We would discuss how to determine whether something is a true monument or a goat stake. We would discuss basic math, geometry, statistics and trigonometry at length before introducing the mind-rattling concepts of geoids, spheroids, datums, transformations and localizations. We would begin discussion on how computers and their software are used in our work. If they have no interest in these items, there is no need in introducing them to the tools used in the world of boundary surveying. Do not break out the "shiny objects" that hold their attention as they daydream through the meat of the course work. Those are only tools. They are not boundary surveying.
Lookinatchya, post: 412823, member: 7988 wrote: I would love to teach such a course, but I don't think a school would accept me because I do not hold a degree. I enrolled in a survey program some thirty years ago when I first got into surveying. I took all the math and surveying courses they offered but at that stage of my life I was not ready to complete all the electives for a degree (Married with two young children)
I had one very good instructor. An old salt surveyor that was very hands on and common sense. Had a few others, a geodesist, a retired DOT surveyor who were just about useless.
I had a young student work with me over Christmas break who is enrolled in a survey program. He had just finished a lab on filed work. He said he learned more from me in two weeks than he did all semester at school.
If the geodesist was useless, he wasn't a geodesist...
The last two things I would let then touch are the instrument and the paint can. I've seen more damage with the latter than the former...
Seriously, there are a few things in teaching that have helped me a ton.
First, never try demonstrating anything in front of the class that you haven't done recently. Fumbling around can cost you the class...
Second, never teach an object. If you are demonstrating or writing, try not to speak unless you look at the class. This one thing adds a polish that holds attention.
Third, enjoy it. If you have fun teaching chances are the students will have more fun learning. Attendance and performance will reflect that.
Good luck, Tom
@Mr Cow. That was excellent. Profound. Wize.
Too many people get the shiny objects, and think they are surveyors. I met one the other day.
Too many people get to sex, and think they are daddys. I met one of those recently too!
N
There was some sort of cartoon to this effect. Gary Larson, I think.
Let em look at at pic of a jet, and they are a pilot.
Let em watch a rodeo, and now they are cowboys.
N
Bill93, post: 412766, member: 87 wrote: You can learn a lot on antiquated equipment that helps you understand what the latest whiz-bang technology is doing for you, so you know what the results mean and also can decide if what it is doing is what you really want.
The current thread about being a few ft off is one example where the technology is so "slick" that it's hard to know what it's doing for you.
Love older equipment. The kind that works just as good 60+ yrs on, as the day it was new. Without a firmware upgrade or OS incompatibility.
Except for chains, they seem to go first.
No shame with a students first data collector bring pencil and paper. And after a good pencil and paper experience they'll write smarter code, knowing what's what.
1. When you do it right, you watch them put columns on your anchor bolts and build wonderful buildings.
2. Do it wrong, you watch them take away your concrete sidewalk in a dump truck, and pay for the privilege!
Well, they've touched all the shiny objects and measured some distances between some nails downhill using a plumb-bob. They set up the tripod and set the level upon it and read the rod. First, they needed to learn how to read a rod (that was last weeks lesson). They set up their field books for a level run and then we all did the level run. We marked our readings in the proper places and we all did the same math to arrive at the same answer. Differences in readings of 1 or so hundredths were common but not unexpected. The big differences stood out like a upended truck in a farmer's field. "Ray, you're reading the wrong hair. Fix the eyepiece so that the hairs are black. You see it now? User the middle hair."
Some of the students know how to use trig. functions and some do not. We are working on that. The degree is an associates in architectural cadd and design technology. This class gets them some hands-on measuring and surveying experience.
Holy Cow, post: 413582, member: 50 wrote: Do not break out the "shiny objects" that hold their attention as they daydream through the meat of the course work. Those are only tools. They are not boundary surveying.
It may be a surveying class but it's not a class intended to earn you a place at the state licensing exam. You are correct: They are not boundary surveying. They are, however, getting a first introduction into the world of surveying and we cannot survey without our tools and our "helpers." Most of us started as helpers and learned little bits at a time about the really serious stuff. To pursue a career as a professional surveyor, I agree with everything you said Holy Cow. To give a future drafts[man] an understanding of where the information comes from is at least a good start.
thebionicman, post: 413612, member: 8136 wrote: Third, enjoy it. If you have fun teaching chances are the students will have more fun learning. Attendance and performance will reflect that.
I do enjoy surveying and using all the gadgets. Having the students run a level loop that comes back to the same bench elevation is proving very satisfying. Hearing each one say, "Raise for a red" is pretty cool too.
They will be measuring the vertical angle soon. It will be applied to the slope distance to calculate the elevation difference and the horizontal distance. Lesson one is that the angle must be in degrees and decimals of a degree and you cannot round that number up to operate on it.
