Warm Aloha from Kauai,
I worked on the closed loop traverse with the intention of creating control network. I did pretty well with my smaller six points loop with a very tight closure.
Satisfied with my progress, I embarked on the larger loop within a 70 acre parcel(s). Total horizontal distance of the loop was 9315.38FT. When I closed the loop…and to my disappointment I got the following result 🙁
Relative: 1:11060 Linear:0.84 Feet Direction:127°31'23"
Northing:-0.51 Feet Easting:0.67 Feet Elevation:0.36 Feet
I took a lot care within my limited knowledge and skill as novice. I turned 8 sets of angle on all points. There are several places I had to traverse from a short leg to and longer traverse legs. In those instances I turned 16 sets of angles--with couple pushes of button of course 🙂
My questions:
1. What is the next step to find blunders and outliers to correct the errors? Is that possible for this much error?
2. Would anyone will be willing to share the step by step procedure you would apply the error detection procedure?
3. Does this look pretty bad that I should start over again?
Thank you so much as always!
yswami,
I feel your frustration. Unfortunately, it happens to all of us sometimes.
I ran a traverse a week or two ago, and it had an unacceptable mis-closure. I used Carlson's find bad angle routine, and sure enough, the angle it reported, was one that I remembered looking at a shadowy backsight and into a glaring (sunny) foresight.
The weather has not been favorable, so we have not returned to the field to check it yet, but we are scheduled to head back out there Tuesday. Our first task will be to re-observe the suspect occupation. If that re-observation does not bring the traverse into closure, then we'll re-run it.
Did you have any suspect occupations that raised any concerns? Are your rods or tribrachs in adjustment?
Balanced shots (backsights and foresights) are desirable, but not always possible. I try to keep them as balanced as possible. Sometimes steep vertical angles can mess up your shots as well.
What type of prisms are you using for your traversing? I seem to remember that you are using a Trimble 5600 series robot.
> I took a lot care within my limited knowledge and skill as novice. I turned 8 sets of angle on all points. There are several places I had to traverse from a short leg to and longer traverse legs. In those instances I turned 16 sets of angles--with couple pushes of button of course 🙂
>
> My questions:
>
> 1. What is the next step to find blunders and outliers to correct the errors? Is that possible for this much error?
>
> 2. Would anyone will be willing to share the step by step procedure you would apply the error detection procedure?
The way that I'd approach the problem is to run the traverse through Star*Net to begin with, to see if particular stations look suspicious enough to merit remeasurements.
If you can post your traverse in Star*Net format, I'll bet more than a few posters will have something to offer toward debugging it.
The basic format is:
to specify the coordinates (and height of some station upon which the traverse begins) thusly:
C PtNo Northing Easting Height ! ! ! # the exclamation marks indicate a value that is to be held fixed in the adjustment
Then, the traverse would be entered as:
M From-At-To HorizAngle SlopeDist ZenAngle HI/HT # for SDist ZAng entry
or
M From-At-To HorizAngle HorDist DeltaHgt HI/HT # for HDist HgtDiff entry
If you have repeat measurements that you want to enter as separate quantities, enter multiple measurements. Everything on a data line after a # is an unprocessed remark.
Here's an example with sideshots:
[pre]
# At Spike 98
DV 98-97 188.7820 91-51-59.00 5.280/5.940 'SPIKE.WASHER
M 97-98-1232 166-38-39.50 26.2020 90-45-41.00 5.280/4.940 'FD1.2IRON.ROD
DV 98-97 188.7800 91-51-58.50 5.280/5.940 'SPIKE.WASHER
M 97-98-1232 166-38-48.00 26.2065 90-45-40.00 5.280/4.940 'FD1.2IRON.ROD
M 97-98-99 179-47-49.00 303.0725 91-26-38.50 5.280/4.940 'SPIKE.WASHER
M 97-98-99 179-47-48.00 303.0760 91-26-36.00 5.280/4.940 'SPIKE.WASHER
[/pre]
Oh, the "DV" line is for just a distance measurement, such as the distance to the backsight.
DV From-To SDist ZenAngle HI/HT
or
DV From-To HDist DeltaHgt HI/HT
> My questions:
>
> 1. What is the next step to find blunders and outliers to correct the errors? Is that possible for this much error?
>
> 2. Would anyone will be willing to share the step by step procedure you would apply the error detection procedure?
>
> 3. Does this look pretty bad that I should start over again?
Other questions have to do with methods and procedures.
- How short were the short lines, for example?
- What was the method of target centering used?
- Were the targets 360deg prisms with a preferred side?
- How do the back and forward distances on the same lines compare?
A procedure I used years ago (pre-StarNet Least Squares)
Only works if you have ONE bad distance or ONE bad angle.
Your closure:
Linear:0.84 Feet Direction:127°31'23"
1) If you have a leg in your Traverse that is close to being parallel
to 127°31'23" then you may have a bad distance in that leg.
2) Calculate the Azimuth at +90° and -90° to 127°31'23".
If that line "points" toward any of your Angle Points,
Then that Angle Point may have a bad value.
Also, sometimes calculating the Traverse in a reverse direction may
give a particular Angle Point that has a very different value than
the one calculated going in the first place. That's a suspect Angle Point.
Closing The Loop Or Completing The Traverse?
Closing the loop is a single tie in. Completing the traverse is uccuoying all traverse points, giving redundant angles and distances.
More info on your work.
The next step is least squares analysis.
Paul in PA
Aloha, Jimmy:
Thank you for your respond!
I used Carlson's find bad angle routine
I have Carlson...where do you find this routine. If I recall you use Survey Pro with Ranger 500 right? Do you upload TDS Raw data?
>
> Did you have any suspect occupations that raised any concerns?
There was one area that I had to sight through a chainlink fence...very narrow passage.
>
>Are your rods or tribrachs in adjustment?
I calibrated both my rods and tribrach just recently.
>
> Balanced shots (backsights and foresights) are desirable, but not always possible. I try to keep them as balanced as possible. Sometimes steep vertical angles can mess up your shots as well.
I had to run few traverses with short backsights. But I was cornered by tight corners of buildings.
>
> What type of prisms are you using for your traversing?
I have two prisms they both are 360º Which I aim perfectly to a single prism in it consistently
>
>I seem to remember that you are using a Trimble 5600 series robot.
I was using 5600. But several months ago I had a boon (through donation) to upgrade to an used S6 (I think it is one of the early model 2005?)
Aloha, Kent:
Thank you for detailed reply.
I took a lot of repetition shots. It will be a bit of work to convert from the format my SurveyPro software provides the data to Star*Net format manually.
I did a quick search after reading your post--before attempting to manually change the data to Star*Net format. I found out that Star*Net has a converter that will covert JobXML.JXL file from SurveyPro to .DAT file. However, it is priced close to two hundred dollars on their website.
Would you be able import any one of the format such as JobXML.JXL or .JOB or .RAW or .CR5 in to Star*Net?
Thanks again Kent!
>
> The way that I'd approach the problem is to run the traverse through Star*Net to begin with, to see if particular stations look suspicious enough to merit remeasurements.
>
> If you can post your traverse in Star*Net format, I'll bet more than a few posters will have something to offer toward debugging it.
>
I would suspect the chain link fence.
The S6 has a sensor above the objective in face 1 and below in face 2. That can sometimes cause issues because the shot looks clear through the telescope but the sensor is partly blocked. Sometimes only one face has an issue.
The other thing that is common is a busted target height. That will stick out like a sore thumb to StarNet which flag the suspect observations.
I always take field notes...note H.I.s and T.H.s and descriptions. This helps in finding mis-entries by me.
I can convert either a TDS .RW5 or .RAW to .DAT format.
karolysurveyor at gmail dot com
Aloha, Kent:
1. The shortest traverse line is 80.76FT
2. Method of target centering--prism rod with bipod (if I understand correctly...)
3. I had fixed 360º for backsight and another 360º for foresight. I maintained same prism for the foresight for sure. However, the backsight may not have the same prism all the time. I do align the 360º prisms so that the gun is always points to the center of the prism.
4. Examples:
In my raw data this how the data is listed and I am not sure which one of this pertinent for your review...
Here is an example of Foresight Direct.
Target Prism, HR 5.5 USFT
Angle Right: 278 43 44
Zenith Angle: 90 22 24
Slope Dist.: 80.731 USFT
Computed Zenith Angle: 90 22 23
Computed Slope Dist: 80.764 USFT
Foresight Reverse.
Target Prism, HR 5.5 USFT
Angle Right: 98 43 44
Zenith Angle: 269 37 20
Slope Dist.: 80.726 USFT
Computed Zenith Angle: 269 37 21
Computed Slope Dist: 80.759 USFT
Is this what you asked for when you wrote, "How do the back and forward distances compare?"
Thanks Kent!
Thank you Dave!
Aloha, Dave: I just sent you the .RAW file.
Huge Mahalos!
> I would suspect the chain link fence.
>
> The S6 has a sensor above the objective in face 1 and below in face 2. That can sometimes cause issues because the shot looks clear through the telescope but the sensor is partly blocked. Sometimes only one face has an issue.
>
> The other thing that is common is a busted target height. That will stick out like a sore thumb to StarNet which flag the suspect observations.
>
> I always take field notes...note H.I.s and T.H.s and descriptions. This helps in finding mis-entries by me.
Aloha, Dave:
TH is target height right i.e Rod Height?
Here is the data in DAT format:
I replaced some SS with M because I think it is all measured. I would run it myself but Jameson is "stinky" right now LOL.
[pre]
# STAR*TDS Version 3.0.5
# Copyright 2006 Starplus Software, Inc.
# Input Field File : C:UsersDavidDocumentsMicroSurveyStarNetField Data1-13-15 MONATERY CONTROLS.RAW
# Date ProceM ed : 02-22-2015 12:11:21
.Units FeetUS
.Units DMS
.Order AtFromTo
.Sep -
.Delta Off
.3D
# C 1 -992.63700 -14640.18700 412.43300 'CP1
# C 2 -748.43300 -14553.92400 439.46700 'CP2
# Job : 1-13-15 MONATERY CONTROLS
# Date : 01-13-2015
# Time : 10:09:39
DV 2-1 260.3771 95-52-57.94 4.718/5.000 'CP1
M 2-1-3 178-15-21.65 393.1635 89-00-40.41 4.718/6.000 'CP3
M 2-1-3 178-15-21.65 393.1635 89-00-40.41 4.718/6.000 'CP3
DV 3-2 393.1505 90-53-34.89 5.620/5.000 'CP2
M 3-2-4 180-26-19.64 564.7759 89-20-27.31 5.620/6.000 'CP4
M 3-2-4 180-26-19.64 564.7759 89-20-27.31 5.620/6.000 'CP4
DV 4-3 564.7711 90-40-06.74 5.469/5.000 'CP3
DV 4-3 564.7807 90-37-34.48 5.469/5.000 'CP3
M 4-3-5 192-57-21.12 364.6817 88-30-29.53 5.469/5.000 'CP5
M 4-3-5 192-57-21.12 364.6817 88-30-29.53 5.469/5.000 'CP5
DV 5-4 364.6815 91-30-59.48 5.079/5.000 'CP4
M 5-4-6 150-25-52.15 268.5552 89-04-35.44 5.079/5.000 'CP6
DV 5-4 364.6882 91-30-58.50 5.079/5.000 'CP4
M 5-4-7 196-19-26.88 492.8983 87-13-46.27 5.079/5.000 'CP7
M 5-4-6 150-25-52.15 268.5552 89-04-35.44 5.079/5.000 'CP6
M 6-5-8 198-18-54.44 552.6376 86-40-09.02 4.958/5.000 'CP8
M 6-5-8 198-18-54.44 552.6376 86-40-09.02 4.958/5.000 'CP8
DV 8-6 552.6680 93-20-34.97 5.149/5.000 'CP6
M 8-6-9 178-10-28.57 281.4582 86-32-43.93 5.149/5.000 'CP9
M 8-6-9 178-10-28.57 281.4582 86-32-43.93 5.149/5.000 'CP9
DV 9-8 281.4749 93-32-47.75 5.294/5.000 'CP8
M 9-8-10 311-41-07.12 411.6258 92-18-55.10 5.294/6.000 'CP10
M 9-8-10 311-41-07.12 411.6258 92-18-55.10 5.294/6.000 'CP10
DV 10-9 411.6266 87-39-14.87 5.479/5.000 'CP9
M 10-9-11 190-46-32.72 484.8410 91-04-54.71 5.479/5.000 'CP11
M 10-9-12 229-18-51.20 387.6540 91-53-49.40 5.479/5.000 '=7
M 10-9-11 190-46-32.72 484.8410 91-04-54.71 5.479/5.000 'CP11
DV 11-10 484.8204 89-02-58.01 5.610/5.000 'CP10
DV 13-11 140.4690 83-05-32.56 5.660/5.000 'CP11
DV 11-10 484.8214 89-01-03.33 5.349/5.000 'CP10
M 11-10-13 302-04-26.03 140.4662 96-54-37.40 5.349/6.000 'CP12
M 11-10-13 302-04-26.03 140.4662 96-54-37.40 5.349/6.000 'CP12
DV 13-11 140.4749 83-03-27.87 5.575/5.000 'CP11
M 13-11-14 110-21-01.14 311.7234 90-03-36.48 5.575/5.000 'CP13
M 13-11-14 110-21-01.14 311.7234 90-03-36.48 5.575/5.000 'CP13
DV 14-13 311.7272 90-05-48.56 5.289/5.000 'CP12
M 14-13-15 138-47-11.07 232.3018 88-10-01.63 5.289/5.000 'CP14
M 14-13-15 138-47-11.07 232.3018 88-10-01.63 5.289/5.000 'CP14
DV 15-14 232.3072 91-56-00.97 5.129/5.000 'CP13
M 15-14-16 109-16-43.46 379.2014 88-58-35.28 5.129/6.000 'CP15
M 15-14-16 109-16-43.46 379.2014 88-58-35.28 5.129/6.000 'CP15
DV 16-15 379.1989 90-56-48.59 5.359/5.000 'CP14
M 16-15-17 216-05-08.84 440.5655 91-43-57.51 5.359/6.000 'CP16
M 16-15-17 216-05-08.84 440.5655 91-43-57.51 5.359/6.000 'CP16
DV 17-15 440.5679 88-16-31.38 5.670/5.000 'CP14
M 17-16-18 162-58-25.52 335.3575 92-47-13.11 5.670/6.000 'CP17
M 17-16-18 162-58-25.52 335.3575 92-47-13.11 5.670/6.000 'CP17
DV 18-17 335.3787 87-10-26.92 5.084/5.000 'CP16
M 18-17-19 227-11-52.03 303.1793 90-02-40.28 5.084/5.000 'CP18
M 18-17-19 227-11-52.03 303.1793 90-02-40.28 5.084/5.000 'CP18
M 19-18-20 242-25-29.70 164.4136 89-39-27.43 4.948/5.000 'CP19
M 19-18-20 242-25-29.70 164.4136 89-39-27.43 4.948/5.000 'CP19
M 20-19-21 211-19-05.03 318.7422 89-52-04.26 4.878/5.000 'CP20
M 20-19-21 211-19-05.03 318.7422 89-52-04.26 4.878/5.000 'CP20
M 21-20-22 85-04-22.70 204.5460 91-46-13.83 4.562/5.000 'CP21
M 21-20-22 85-04-22.70 204.5460 91-46-13.83 4.562/5.000 'CP21
M 22-21-23 176-12-02.97 247.4584 91-59-16.06 5.114/6.500 'CP22
M 22-21-23 176-12-02.97 247.4584 91-59-16.06 5.114/6.500 'CP22
DV 23-22 247.5129 87-39-34.15 5.850/6.000 'CP21
M 23-22-24 157-26-56.13 163.7846 92-33-46.41 5.850/5.600 'CP23
M 23-22-24 157-26-56.13 163.7846 92-33-46.41 5.850/5.600 'CP23
M 24-23-25 278-43-40.21 80.7606 90-22-30.40 4.673/5.500 'CP24
M 24-23-25 278-43-40.21 80.7606 90-22-30.40 4.673/5.500 'CP24
M 25-24-26 237-20-47.23 202.8030 88-55-17.26 5.394/5.500 'CP25
M 25-24-26 237-20-47.23 202.8030 88-55-17.26 5.394/5.500 'CP25
M 26-25-27 198-09-09.44 164.1743 87-55-13.07 5.534/5.500 'CP26
M 26-25-27 198-09-09.44 164.1743 87-55-13.07 5.534/5.500 'CP26
M 27-26-28 178-26-55.99 104.6203 89-26-53.58 4.778/5.340 'CP27
M 27-26-28 178-26-55.99 104.6203 89-26-53.58 4.778/5.340 'CP27
DV 28-27 104.6271 90-39-27.73 5.745/5.000 'CP26
M 28-27-29 202-10-22.54 185.1539 88-04-43.49 5.745/5.340 'CP28
DV 28-27 104.6285 90-39-28.38 5.745/5.000 'CP26
M 28-27-29 202-10-22.54 185.1539 88-04-43.49 5.745/5.000 'CP28
M 29-28-30 194-44-11.15 91.2933 86-47-47.98 4.948/5.500 'CP29
M 29-28-30 194-44-11.15 91.2933 86-47-47.98 4.948/5.500 'CP29
M 30-29-31 160-36-12.94 118.9004 88-52-28.37 4.718/5.500 'CP30
M 30-29-31 160-36-12.94 118.9004 88-52-28.37 4.718/5.500 'CP30
M 31-30-32 120-24-30.01 120.2284 90-36-00.70 5.039/5.500 'CP31
M 31-30-32 120-24-30.01 120.2284 90-36-00.70 5.039/5.500 'CP31
M 32-31-33 176-30-48.49 268.5611 93-22-13.02 4.948/5.500 'CP32
M 32-31-33 176-30-48.49 268.5611 93-22-13.02 4.948/5.500 'CP32
M 33-32-34 155-15-43.04 496.7406 93-08-19.08 4.973/5.500 'CP33
M 33-32-34 155-15-43.04 496.7406 93-08-19.08 4.973/5.500 'CP33
M 34-33-35 204-39-59.56 339.3691 89-03-25.26 5.049/5.500 '=1
M 1-34-36 292-41-22.43 260.4457 83-57-01.10 5.003/5.500 '=2
[/pre]
yswami,
In the Survey Menu, you go to:
edit-process raw data file
import raw data file, select a TDS file
Once your raw data file populates the menu form:
under the tools pulldown menu, you will see find bad angle.
I hope this helps.
I agree with Dave, chain link fences are tough, especially if you are looking at them at a skewed angle.
Here is the data in DAT format:
The TDS RAW format doesn't work as well as the older RW5. I see some DVs are missing and I think the SSs were duplicates.
From the RAW you get meaned sets. TDS RAW has the sets buried in a different format.
Closing The Loop Or Completing The Traverse?
> Closing the loop is a single tie in. Completing the traverse is uccuoying all traverse points, giving redundant angles and distances.
>
> More info on your work.
>
> The next step is least squares analysis.
>
> Paul in PA
Aloha, Paul:
Thank you for chiming in!
I had the intention to do redundant shots with angles and distances. But I want to focus on completing the traverse loop first. I was planning to do the redundant shots separately. I was kind of heart broken with the closure result. Thought I'd get the guidance here before continuing with the redundant shots.
Is there any specific information you need me to provide?
Thanks Paul!
Your data:
Zenith Angle: 90 22 24
Slope Dist.: 80.731 USFT
Computed Zenith Angle: 90 22 23
Computed Slope Dist: 80.764 USFT
What is "Computed Slope Dist"??
What is "Computed Zenith Angle" ??
How does the Slope Dist get LONGER??
Normally you have a Zenith Angle and a Slope Dist.
From that you calculate:
Horizontal Dist
Difference in Elevation
In any case most Total stations will do that calc for you.
Closing The Loop Or Completing The Traverse?
Are you using Trimble Survey Controller or Access?
If so, I have a conversion format which creates a TDS RW5 which is better.
> Your data:
>
>
> Zenith Angle: 90 22 24
> Slope Dist.: 80.731 USFT
> Computed Zenith Angle: 90 22 23
> Computed Slope Dist: 80.764 USFT
>
> What is "Computed Slope Dist"??
> What is "Computed Zenith Angle" ??
> How does the Slope Dist get LONGER??
>
> Normally you have a Zenith Angle and a Slope Dist.
> From that you calculate:
> Horizontal Dist
> Difference in Elevation
>
> In any case most Total stations will do that calc for you.
Aloha, Bob:
The simply typed what was show in the raw data view within Survey Pro software in the Data collector. I don't know why the software did the calculation. When Kent asked for distances, I looked there for it. I was confused why there was two measurements. Hence I included both.
Mahalo
