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Not saying they are not capable. I will say that those surveyors have shot themselves in the foot and eliminated any possibility of hiring anyone by not modernizing their equipment and software.
Look, I get it, most of you guys are bloody Luddites but it is because of that refusal to charge a little more every quarter for your work and spend a little on equipment and personnel that nobody wants to do this work anymore.
And besides, you will never find a young person willing and able to do this kind of work that will use a old old obsolete DOS based program, I mean what would the point of learning it be because it is a dead end program. You certainly can’t brush up your resume by pointing out that you are skilled in C&G DOS from 1994.
I am not one of the luddites, and you have a point about hiring, but in at least one area that I have experience in the biggest luddite is the go to guy for difficult boundaries and he has the highest rates.
If you learn Starnet on a DOS machine, you can run it in windows. In fact, if you learn it in dos you actually learn statistics. The same is true of trimnet and skipro. For some jobs there is a near zero efficiency gain by modernizing. At this point that’s pretty much moot, though true.
The software of today is full of proprietary and flat out incorrect terminology. You will not learn geodesy or statistics while learning the software and god help you if you have to communicate with an actual geodesist.
I am not resistant to change or modernization, but it sickens me to see vendors providing garbage software to people who should know better.
And while I’m on a rant (not against you mind you), here we are back on measurement. How many firms have group discussions, deconstructing complex boundaries and evidence patterns? Mentoring is not teaching people to punch buttons or recognize icons. We better figure that out or somebody will find another solution that doesnt involve us.
I hear your frustration but your argument is seriously flawed. It’s modern equipment and software that’s eliminated many of the positions that would provide opportunities for mentoring. Gone is the instrument man, replaced by a robot. A third hand is not nearly as essential as when we were stretching chains. I’m not promoting the solo operator, but that’s reality for many of us. I hire a university survey student for the summer, but opportunities to mentor are limited. Automation is a double edged sword. But a tool is a tool, and I still use DOS. Teqc is a DOS system with a Windows gui for ease of use. I see in a resume someone knows DOS as well as the latest C3D, I know this individual understands the concept of the right tool for the job. I have to. This problem as I see it has been going on since I first started out. I remember well one surveyor lamenting 20 years ago the profession was in his words, ‘eating it’s children’. We’re unique in that we’re required to be on the cutting edge of technology, but required to understand how that line was run a century ago.
Willy- Posted by: @aliquot
It still takes as much time to cut a mile of line as it did 40 years ago.
Indeed. But if you don’t need a line of sight what the heck are you doing cutting miles of line? Have a crew of landscapers do that. Let the property owner do that. There just isn’t much room on the crew these days for all muscle – no brains types. Luckily
mostmany people can be trained to perform the basic tasks of setting up and operating modern instruments within a matter of hours. Knowing where and when to do it takes more time. - Posted by: @just-a-surveyor
And besides, you will never find a young person willing and able to do this kind of work that will use a old old obsolete DOS based program, I mean what would the point of learning it be because it is a dead end program. You certainly can’t brush up your resume by pointing out that you are skilled in C&G DOS from 1994.
I disagree (a LOT) with that statement.
Would a Title Attorney hire a paralegal (or rookie attorney) to review a title abstract, if he/she couldn’t read “cursive?”
Would an airline hire a pilot who only knows how to “let the computer” take off, land, fly?
And so and so forth.
Updating for the sake of “updating,” is a fools errand. Obviously there ARE things (equipment, software, etc.) that SHOULD be reasonably “up to date,” but that doesn’t mean that some of the “old” equipment/software isn’t the BEST tool for the job at hand.
2 bits
Loyal
- Posted by: @loyal
Would an airline hire a pil0t who only knows how to “let the computer” take off, land, fly?
Ummm…well.. yes, they would. But I get your point.
I am not saying to update just for the sake of updating, for heavens sake I have not said that, and I am an advocate for getting the most out of your equipment but doggone it when the newest computer device or software in the office is older than the people you’re likely to hire I would submit that you will probably not have much success and it can all be traced to falling behind in the pricing and technology.
Surveyor X buys the latest new fangled computer and software in 1993 and it costs a lot back then but soon thereafter Windows comes out but he is still paying for the stuff he bought in 93. So, he soldiers on as he should and forgoes updating, and the Windows 95 comes out and then XP comes out, and then Vista, and MX or something like that, well now we are in Windows 10 and by golly Surveyor X is still trying to use a 26 year old program and can’t find anybody who knows how to use the old obsolete crap he has.
I truly do get it, and I am not suggesting that the old DOS programs were not (are not still capable) but there comes a time when you have to accept the reality and raise your bloody rates and charge more money and buy something built in this century. Go up on your prices quarterly, do not skip it, do not blow it off or think it is not needed.
Because Surveyor X fell asleep at the wheel and still uses the same pricing structure as he did 25 years ago NOW in order to make the necessary changes he would have to triple his prices (maybe more) and he cannot bring himself to do that so he soldiers on dragging the entire area down.
Many of the local “Old hands” around my area have discussed this topic in some form or another over the last few years, never to any real answer, of course. One even took on an intern this year, that he has farmed out to some of us in an effort to show the young fellow some forms of surveying other than what his own firm does. I myself am guilty of not wanting to take many people out with me working, even though 2 is safer than 1, because of the lack of work ethic, stup[id questions, and the fact I end up doing it all anyways, sometimes twice after they gave it a half hearted effort. I do admit I have come across a few potential new hires that showed promise, but they were few and far between. Not many of today’s persons are interested in work where they have to be in the heat, cold, rain, swing an axe, dig holes, watch for snakes, wade creeks, etc, when the local fast food joint will pay almost as much, and will work with them on which hours they want to work. When I do get the ones who are interested, I do what I can to teach them at least the things I feel are important basics, with the knowledge that many of them will move on to other, better paying jobs in the oil field surveying parts of the state as soon as they can run a GPS by themselves. I have said I would like to see something like an accredited surveyors college, akin to a barber’s college. In Texas, people have to practice cutting hair for a large amount of hours before they can get their barbers license. Why could surveyors not offer a surveyors college that at a minimum taught how GPS worked, how tape measures should be used, how to drive rebar straight, how to do basic calculations, troubleshooting poor GPS receptions, how to keep Field Notes, basic truck maintenance, etc. Things that would make field hands more desirable to employers when they applied for their first survey job.
It seems you’re making the same argument I am, especially when the local fast food joint pays as much.
This is one of the many flashing neon signs that have been in our face for decades telling us to raise our fees and yet surveyors refused to see the signs.
When a young person with potential can make the same money or more doing less it is a sign that we are so far behind the cost curve that we may likely never catch up.
- Posted by: @just-a-surveyor
It seems you’re making the same argument I am, especially when the local fast food joint pays as much.
The local fast-food starts off as much. But the ceiling is maybe a couple bucks an hour more. A person who has worked fast food for 10 years may not add any more value to the business than someone who started a month ago.
The ceiling with surveying is an actual living wage. If not with the guy you start out with, then with someone else. SO, no problem with starting a new survey helper out at minimum, as long as there are regular increases as they develop knowledge. I’d expect something (maybe a buck or 2 an hr. each time) after a month, 3 & 6 months, a year, and so on. Assuming steady personal growth. That’s not going to happen at Subway.
FWIW being half a world away and half a profession away (mostly feel like an impostor on this site), this is a great debate and is being debated here too and most likely around the world.
Well Richard, this is a debate that is purposely avoided by all the state societies and this topic gives many surveyors the vapors and makes them hyperventilate but I’m at the point in my life where I just don’t care. I have witnessed some of the worse business practices from surveyors. They are good men and good surveyors but miserable at business and I gotta tell you the state of surveying in my little corner of the world is terrible. More often than not most identify with the client like an abused person does with their abuser.
I have seen surveyors blatantly lie about the fees and billing rates.
I have seen many of the ones around me using ancient tools and software. Sure it works but for the love of god why would you continue using crap that is held together with band clamps and zip ties?
Computers and software that is 26 years old.
I’m just tired of the BS and hypocrisy. This profession complains about the lack of young people entering this line of work or being able to hire competent people and they are paid dirt for wages with no benefits and non existent mentoring and they have to go out and deal with miserable conditions in the hot or cold, swamp or mountain, busy highway or rural road and do it in a ragged out 30 year old truck and ragged out equipment.
- Posted by: @just-a-surveyor
I’m just tired of the BS and hypocrisy. This profession complains about the lack of young people entering this line of work or being able to hire competent people and they are paid dirt for wages with no benefits and non existent mentoring and they have to go out and deal with miserable conditions in the hot or cold, swamp or mountain, busy highway or rural road and do it in a ragged out 30 year old truck and ragged out equipment.
As someone who is not really young or old (approaching 40 with 15 years of experience), and who went back to get a four-year degree with a lot of young folks, I wholeheartedly agree. Nearly all of the students worked internships in the summer to gain experience. A lot of them, including myself, worked full time while going to school. These kids are not asking to be paid like Google or Microsoft employees right out of the gate. They don’t shy away from working in harsh conditions. But they know that there is value in both formal education and real-world experience. And they for sure recognize the value in investing in quality equipment.
I moved to one of the hottest markets in the country after graduating, both to be closer to family and because there were a lot of employers around here.
And it was like pulling teeth to get enough pay to just barely hang on – as a degreed, licensed LS with a wide range of expertise in both office and field. The new graduates with several summers of experience were being offered $14/hr in a region where $13.50 will be mandated next year – $16 for large employers.
After a year, I am already preparing to move away. Looking at law school, in fact, because I am not impressed with the “opportunities” I am seeing, not just around here, but across the nation in general. Poor pay, stagnant departments, no path for advancement, old gear and the all-too-familiar “that’s the way we’ve always done it” mentality…
I used to do outreach programs for middle and high schools, and pitch the geomatics degree to folks who were interested. Now when someone asks me about going into land surveying, I flat out tell them not to do it. Until we clean up our act, I can’t in good conscience recommend it.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman - Posted by: @rover83
I used to do outreach programs for middle and high schools, and pitch the geomatics degree to folks who were interested. Now when someone asks me about going into land surveying, I flat out tell them not to do it. Until we clean up our act, I can’t in good conscience recommend it.
I told my son if he thought about getting into surveying I would beat him because it is hard damned work and there is no money in it. Maybe some of the folks from the PNW can chime in because this man sounds like a first person account of the bloody lies and hypocrisy about what you fellas out there pay people.
I see just the opposite. Surveyors, or shall i say people in the surveying professions from drafters to techs to party chiefs have been in such high demand that wages are going up very very fast. Obviously things are different in different areas of the US. For example, well qualified techs are making $30/HR+ around here.
If you are a capable tech or PLS, there is no reason to work for low pay. I am sure there are communities where the rates and pay are depressed. Do not blame the profession if you choose to stay in one. You can make an excellent living as a surveyor if you make the necessary choices.
- Posted by: @thebionicman
If you are a capable tech or PLS, there is no reason to work for low pay. I am sure there are communities where the rates and pay are depressed. Do not blame the profession if you choose to stay in one. You can make an excellent living as a surveyor if you make the necessary choices.
A good tech in the Portland area can make $30/hr, plus real bennies. When I was in OK I earned wages a little bit better than what I was accustomed to making in PDX.
But I don’t live on a diet of rural boundaries, lot jobs, and fence line staking. If you rely on private landowners for a client base you are always going to be racing to the bottom. You need public agencies, developers, heavy construction, etc. for clients. Those are the types that have money to spend on surveying.
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