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There is a similar subdivision nearby, a plat was signed and filed then the lots were sold. The surveyor never set any pins in the interior as far as anyone can find. The exterior was at best partially surveyed.
I was talked into going out there one time. I went around a vacant lot that a second surveyor (he had long moved away and retired) had monumented and found his stamped caps, I flagged them all and got out of there. I let the owners know that the pins of the other surveyor were flagged and that the road into the lot didn’t conform to the plat.
Well,,,,,, a few months later I started to get nasty correspondence from an attorney about how I staked the access road wrong, he needed all my field notes,,,,,ect.
Seems everything in that awful subdivision was now my fault. I told the attorney that I didn’t stake a road, he said the landowner found my lath for the road, the only lath I set outside the lot was a backsite lath along the county road at one of the lot corners, seems the landowner connected that one lath with one on his lot 1/4 mile away and was going to build a new road.
The thing about that subdivision is that it’s a high dollar area, but everybody bought in cheap, of course they did, there was nothing done but some crappy platting to create it,,,,,,,,keeps costs down I guess.
That subdivision is on my do not go there list, if they ever wish to replat and fix the mess I might be interested, but they would have to beg really hard after the way they all acted the last time.
I’ve fixed some of the exterior because one of my clients abuts it, that I enjoyed doing, the fences were a mess, now they are all nice, new, straight and where they should be.
Believe it or not every lot was sold sight unseen, because of the location that is only accessible by private road to the best fly fishing in the world. Every lot owners I talked to said they had no idea where their lot was located. They just wanted a key.
- Posted by: @skeeter1996
Believe it or not every lot was sold sight unseen, because of the location that is only accessible by private road to the best fly fishing in the world. Every lot owners I talked to said they had no idea where their lot was located. They just wanted a key.
That helps explain a lot about how the situation came about.
So did the disputing parties then build on “their lots” although almost no one else did?
. A question that doesn’t seem to have been asked is in regards to timing of events. The developer is now 85 y.o. At what time in the past did he set these monuments? Conceivably as far back as the 1950’s. And did the state license surveyors at that time?
@norman-oklahoma
Plat was done in 1971. Montana didn’t have a subdivision and platting act at the time so the lots less than 20 acres were created without any review. Licensed Land Surveyors were required at the time. An Engineer could become licenced as a Land Surveyor at the time by just checking a box and paying a small additional fee.
@dan-patterson
I would say the data on the plat is better used to recover the monuments set by the platting surveyor and guide us to the locus of other evidence. It should never be used in a vacuum…
Oh hell if the guy set these things 40 years later then I’d call them garbage. Plat wins, imo.
@norman-oklahoma
There are some replies above…Platted in 71, but developer set the pins something like 30 years later after he had no interest in the land…what is unknown was if he was recovering previous stakes (wooden or iron or whatever). Like all cases, the facts matter (and we dont have all of them).
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.I am aware of a very similar subdivision about 60 miles from here. I know the surveyor who drew up the plat but did no surveying of any kind, not even the perimeter. A perfect quarter section, 2640 by 2640 and square. Something like a thousand lots of all configurations based on snake-like roads that never existed and for which no curve data of any kind is available. The surveyor confirmed to me what he had done. His plat dates to about 1960 as I recall. Only a few lots were ever sold, to the best of my memory. Something like Lot 483, Lot 712 and Lot 906. I wouldn’t go into that place for love or money, ever. If the rattlesnakes didn’t get me the copperheads would…….or the tarantulas. Really big tarantulas. When one skitters across the road in front of you the first thought is it is a mouse or rat.
Out of 26 lots two different Surveyors could only find 8 pins. You do the math on how many pins should be out there.
One of the lot owners began building adjacent to the other lot owner in 2017. He dug a large embankment which encroached over the lot line. Three Surveyors were called in which discovered the incompetent previous surveying. All three Surveyors agree the original surveying was of poor quality. Only one, me, verified how truely poor the original surveying was, to the degree that it’s questionable any original surveying was ever done. During trial the Developer confirmed it was him that had set the 8 pins that had been found. The Defendants testified they had inherited the lot from their Grandfather and asked the Developer to show them where it was located. No licenced Surveyors became involved until the lawsuit was filed.
Sounds like Castle Bar. Same Developer same story. Just downstream from this location.
As long as nobody questions each other’s locations, there is no problem.
I feel like I can understand a judge ruling in favor of the erroneous pins if they were set at the time of the platting (as long as they didn??t encroach abutters). But if any lots were sold before the time he set the pins, wouldn??t that automatically be fraudulent as the only representation of the land for 40 or so years is the plat? I know if I bought a piece of property from someone who handed me a plat of my property, then 40 years later staked it without my permission with the amount of discrepancy stated previously, I??d be quite upset, especially if I already have improvements based upon plat.
@tim-libs
My question is: What would you do about it? If the Court ordered damages against you for trespassing on your neighbors lot . Can you go after the Developer. It’s more than 5 years after you bought the property.
My solution is to somehow negotiate a boundary Line Agreement with 26 Lot owners. I was hoping someone would suggest the Developer should be liable for the cost of doing so. There is somewhat limited amounts of occupation by about 8 land owners. Waiting longer will only make the task of a Boundary Line Agreement more difficult. Just staking out lot per the Plat won’t work, because there simply isn’t enough land to fit every lot’s acreage on the ground. Proportioning will stir up a hornets nest because existing cabins will become encroachments on adjoining lots.
Riddick v. Streett
858 SW 2d 62, 313 Ark. 706 - Ark: Supreme Court, 1993 – Google ScholarThanks Dan! Good information, some good some bad. Bad news they didn’t award legal fees, which are quite a bit more than the surveying fees.
Thanks, Dan. Very relevant. I do wish the court had written more on the specific circumstances that led up to things going to trial.
@norman-oklahoma
I was one of the ‘numerous’ surveyors trying to make heads or tails of this subdivision. From what I remember, Mr. Riddick was an Engineer with a ‘grandfathered’ surveyor license. This site is very steep and it was later found that Mr. Riddick ‘slope’ chained a lot of the distances. The lot owners had enough money to fight…and argue…and throw us surveyors against each other. The banks were starting to get nervous…title clouds were rolling in. When it came time for Judge Imber to select her surveyor to do the re-plat, she requested qualifications and based her decision on ‘experience’. My mere 8 years as an Arkansas RLS was no match for Mr. Joe D. White, RLS #534.
Pulaski County Chancellor: Annabelle Clinton Imber – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annabelle_Clinton_Imber
https://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/entries/annabelle-davis-clinton-imber-tuck-6031/
Plot owners:
Garland Streett – retired attorney, descendant of an Arkansas Supreme Court Justice;
Robert V. Light – retired attorney
Thomas F. McLarty, III – former President Clinton’s White House Chief of Staff
Jack L. Tyler – Owner: Jack Tyler Engineering and Tyler Computer/Control Systems
Jackson T. Stephens, Jr. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Stephens#Career
Edgar Riddick was the owner, developer, surveyor, sub-divider, and marketer of Greenbrier Subdivision and its constituent lots. Numerous problems and disputes between lot owners and Mr. and Mrs. Riddick developed as to the proper location of boundaries and boundary markers within Greenbrier and along Cantrell Road.
Numerous surveyors experienced surveying problems because of large discrepancies on the plat of Greenbrier and between the plat and apparent claims of usage and of ownership. Using the distances shown as the boundaries, and the various angles at which those boundaries ran, all as shown on the Greenbrier Subdivision Plat, it was a mathematical fact that the figures of that subdivision would not close.
That resulted in numerous discrepancies in the dimensions and locations of the various plots in that subdivision and those distances and angles shown on that plat.
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