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Standard Setup on Resect-Solution after Resection?
350RocketMike replied 5 months, 1 week ago 10 Members · 41 Replies
But that is “auto turn”, I have that turned off because it automatically turns to the next I stake out. I only use the manual turn to to check if I’m going to see to the next point (or are a bunch of machines or piles of dirt online?) I don’t usually want to give up my lock because it won’t always find me really quickly again. And depending on if I’m walking in an arc….the longer I keep a lock the more reliable GPS search gets (at least on larger sites where you’re not really close to the robot).
I do this routinely so I can include the resected point in my terrain model. A zero HI leaves a lump in the fabric.
I use a CP_RESECT code and it gets automatically excluded from the surface point group like the rest of our CPs, mons, utility locates…if I need a ground shot in the area I’ll just come in close to the TS and get a shot.
Next day get a call that we were not zeroed on bs and the 3 points needed to be re staked. I said what. So I grabbed tsc7 and cked survey style. It was set to azimuth. I said are the as staked points not falling in correct location. He said yeah But the angle to BS is wrong. I said its the azimuth my bad but its fine. Oh no it has to be zeroed.
That’s some next-level “I have no idea what I am doing and do not understand survey observations”…some of our crews set azimuth, and others set zero. Makes no difference at all if there are no blunders.
It doesn’t always work but if the crews do it correctly the simple set rod height to no height. Not 0 but ? So no elevation is computed for items i don’t want to use. Like signs bldg corners etc. or they ar locating something and know the rod height would be bad but we need it planimetrically only.
Are signs and building corners not automatically excluded from the surface point group?
If for some reason we are tying something that would usually carry an elevation but we only need it planimetric, we just add a /Z after our code(s). Civil 3D then automatically excludes that point from the surface point groups.
This really helps cut down on bad rod heights by keeping the crews out of that dialog box. Or forgetting to actually input a new rod height when they need to carry elevations again…
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanYes, your right I could open and modify the CSV, but it’s probably not usually worth it since I’m usually only turning to a couple of points. Sometimes none. Other times it ends up multiple points. But I’d probably spend more time opening, modifying and saving CSVs before hand then I spent turning back to 90. Plus I feel like some might have a problem with modifying csv’s instead of using them as given by the office. <div>
I just think it could be a quick toggle in the turn to function, but that’s just my opinion which usually differs from Trimble’s.
Thanks for mentioning it though because it probably will make sense to do it that way some day. Just another tool in the box.
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I don’t work on the office side of things, what is the reason you would want to exclude the setup point if it’s in the area of the topo? Might be really obvious but sometimes I’m a little slow.
I don’t work on the office side of things, what is the reason you would want to exclude the setup point if it’s in the area of the topo? Might be really obvious but sometimes I’m a little slow.
In the case of a resection, the stored elevation is going to be where the instrument scope is, rather than the ground, since the entered height will be zero. So that’s the special case for resects.
Beyond that, a few other reasons:
-control points and/or monuments are not always flush with the ground. I’ve set up on plenty of cased monuments that were several tenths below grade. I’ve also set up on temporary points in the stump of a tree that were a foot or two above grade. Our crews often set jump-hubs that are ~0.3′ above grade.
-The elevations may very well change if the control gets adjusted after the fact; this might be a minor issue or perhaps a major one depending on the workflow and how things are adjusted
-many surveyors do not give out their control points in their drawing files; it can look a bit strange to clients when the TIN lines pull to a blank point rather than a COGO point. Not a huge issue but I have actually seen it come up
-More generally, I don’t want crews to just assume that some of their setup points, or their power pole offset shots with very rough elevations, or the Rapid-RTK utility paint mark shots, are going to automatically be used in the surface, and thus leave a big hole in the survey. When they are doing surface modelling work, I want them to focus on the topography and get good vertical values and good coverage, even if it means they are taking an observation a few feet away from the control point. In my experience this results in much better quality deliverables as well as fewer site revisits to fill in holes.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman“Now it’s just the calcs that cause annoyance, I wish turn to had an option to turn off vertical like the GPS search….I usually end up turn to point, then turn to VA 90 to get it back to close again. “
So Trimble will not let you turn to a point in 2D? That would be annoying.
So Trimble will not let you turn to a point in 2D? That would be annoying.
It absolutely does, and has for a long time.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanWell depends. If it’s our office project yes i have most codes set up to include and exclude what I want. I use TBC so for me it’s easy. But if it’s another office and they use civil 3d. So a little different. I am sure both can be set up to do the same. I have so little time in civil 3d i just use TBC for everything pretty much. But i don’t get into the final drafting much. I usually get it to about 90% export a dwg and land xml. Surface al labels etc and a cad drafter finishes it all up. I usually just go from one busted traverse to another lol. I get sent everything that doesn’t work. I want more just drafting time for sure. I need that. I fumble through it once in a while.
I think this is only true if you want it to do auto turn to every point you stake. I don’t like doing that as I said because I want it keep locked to the prism.
Unless I’m missing something, the turn to function does not have a no vertical option.
The reason I know this now, is we were laying out gridlines and which we were setting up on and turning 90s. I shot each one F1/f2 in staking. Each time it flipped to face 2 it would turn back to me, then realize the calc was at 0 and turn to the ground, ignoring the where the first face was shot. Then I would have to joystick it or turn to 270 vertical angle to get lock again.
Then I went into the setting Rover83 posted the page before…turned off “automatic” and changed it to horizontal only. It still did the same thing, plus it turned automatically to the next point I staked out, which I did not want. Turning the auto turn off was the result I wanted.
The turn to function in the instrument functions was not affected by this setting, because it’s only for auto turning to a point. Turn to will turn to the vertical of whatever point you select.
- This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by 350RocketMike.
I thought if you checked the box for “compute station elevation” it would be putting the elevation on the point and not the scope. The rest of your points absolutely make sense to me, usually our control is pretty well flush with the ground but not always.
Well here is a few. Lets say you locate a conc ROW monument sticking up a half foot above ground. That doesn’t need to be in the surface or contouring. Now the opposite lets say you drive your nail for your control below the surface so lawnmowers or in a farm field i might go down almost a foot if i know i have to be back and that control point is a much needed one. So the disc or planter doesn’t disturb it. Not good for the contouring either. I just about always have control omited from the surface and contouring along with property corners etc.
Here is straight from the manual. No vertical option. You can work around it. But if you want to pick the point name it’s going to the vertical of that point, so you would need to either modify the CSV beforehand everytime, or turn to the point then turn to VA and enter 90 or whatever was close. Unless I’m missing something, these are the options.
- This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by 350RocketMike.
The rapid point etc. this is where I truly like Trimble once one understands how to use the different measurements methods and the way it can handle different point number ranges when switching between them. I try and get the crews to use different point ranges for these topo rapid and of course observed control point. When don right it is just a few seconds of advanced selection to move some of those points to a layer group that is not used in my surface. Along with the code as well. Exactly like to utility marking scenario. Now there are times when say mapping a landfill that is for volumes and every-time you take a step you sink up to a half a foot i say just use rapid point its good enough heck there are ruts so deep from wash out that what we are doing and why lets get it done. But that takes communication so the next job that needs to be tighter vertically. I try and take the time to give my crew chiefs all the requirements they need to make the best possible decision they can for each project. I probably do this more detailed than most. As when i get lined out its do this. No what is it for no requirements. It’s assumed it’s always done the exact same way no matter what.
Hey thanks for that post on the auto turn setting. I have not looked at that. Amazing this site always learning something new.
Yeah we have always tried to keep an organized set of point ranges, usually a smaller number series for control and jump up to a higher series for topo. The more complicated or bigger the job, the more separate point ranges I might use but we don’t have specific rules other than try to do what makes it simple.
I started using measure codes on the very few large topos that I have done. It saved a lot of time but I don’t yet know how to deal with changing point ranges. It seemed like it I do that I have to shoot one point in regular measure topo to get into my point range I’m using before I can just click whatever number is linked to the code. Is that where you set up to store in a certain range?
I was shooting for volume the other day and like you said banks collapsing as I walk on it ..I just stored quickly in TRK mode. Good enough. First I tried to do it reflectorless because I thought even though it has issues hitting a building corner….for vertical it should be fine. I’ve used it to check to benchmarks and shoot grades before and it was just the horizontal that it would miss, but I got some really bad vertical shots on this volume topo…. missing by 0.2m vertical, which was just shooting into the sky….nothing it could have missed and shot? So overwrote the few bad shots after confirming I never needed up an HI ot rod ht and started climbing the pile. I should have borrowed the sx12, even though I have little experience with it it still would likely have saved time scanning it.
I thought if you checked the box for “compute station elevation” it would be putting the elevation on the point and not the scope.
It will compute the elevation for whatever instrument height you enter. If the instrument is set up over a physical point, and you measure to the bottom of notch and enter that value, it will compute the elevation of that point on the ground.
If you enter zero for true height, it will compute the elevation of the scope and store that value with the point.
I think this is only true if you want it to do auto turn to every point you stake. I don’t like doing that as I said because I want it keep locked to the prism.
If you want to keep it locked on the prism, let it just track the prism by turning off the Automatic option and setting the Auto Turn to “off” in the Servo/Robotic section of the survey style. It will give you some weird cuts and fills, but won’t turn to the point.
If you want it to turn to a point when you stake it out, but only turn to it horizontally, keep the Automatic option off, but change the Auto Turn option to “HA only”. But of course that means it won’t track the prism, because you told it to.
I don’t know what to say if you want to have it track the prism but also turn to a point but only horizontally.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanI think you misunderstand me. Those are two separate things. I normally would not ever want it to turn to the point, I want it to stay locked and tell me where to go…which is why I have it set to auto turn off. But occasionally I want to turn to the next point if I want to check if I’m going to have line of sight to that point. That’s what the “turn to” function is for and that’s what I use. All I’m saying is not having a vertical toggle for that function means an extra input, as I will have to turn back to 90 degrees after turning to the point unless the csv has been modified for elevation as discussed also. I don’t think it’s as efficient to go change the auto turn setting for this purpose, as you will have to go back in and change it back after staking the one point. I was just trying to work out what would be the most efficient way, as sometimes we’re doing it over and over again.
So let me see if i can wrap my head around this. You stake out point number 1. Accept and store it. S5 is still locked on and you select from map or list the next point to stake out say number 2. If you had it in trk mode which is distance only and if you look at the specs is only a mm difference and 1ppm than a measured value it will tell you in many ways depending on how you have it set up where to go come in out left right from where you are to where you want to go. Also it can do north east if that is what you like. From instrument perspective or target. You can even customize the screen in whatever order of what you want to see vs not needed to see . I have a hard time seeing up close and hate wearing my glasses with safety goggles over them on certain sites so I customize it to what i need. Now if you don’t have it in trk edm mode simply take a shot where you stand so you know where to go for next point. Or i don’t know if its still in the software but I remember using a stake to a point from a point feature many years ago that helped me quickly identify direction and distance from where i stood. Of course i didn’t start surveying with map screens so I honestly am still getting use to all that. I do use the turn to function and i have never had issues with it . I will tell you this I hardly ever use the joystick on screen or on the controller. Sometimes i use it for when i am in thick stuff and see a small hole and want to get it looking in that to lock but I never really needed it much. Once i have it locked and working i am usually just moving along. When we were staking last week we had several instances of traffic being stopped so no line of sight for a while. I simply paced up to about where the next point was supposed to be hit turn and it would usually lock as soon traffic cleared. My crew chief runs it way more than i and we had a beer or two discussing some of your issues and trying to figure out why as we tried hard to reinvent them. He has been staking on construction sites for years. He is a points guy. Give him points and he is happy. He has used carlson leica and Trimble. His opinion is what he has right now has been the best and easiest to use and stay locked when machines run between him and gun etc. now he loves the R12i and smiles when i say he can stake with that. He said it was made for the old men lol he just points the tip where he wants the helper to drive it lol.
“So let me see if i can wrap my head around this. You stake out point number 1. Accept and store it. S5 is still locked on and you select from map or list the next point to stake out say number 2. If you had it in trk mode which is distance only and if you look at the specs is only a mm difference and 1ppm than a measured value”
I’ve seen anywhere between 0.000 and 0.006m difference between tracking and an actual measurement in semi active. Friday it was snowing quite a bit while working, so this difference trended up higher than normal. Usually its only a few mm’s but I think the snow can affect the accuracy of the LED’s.
“it will tell you in many ways depending on how you have it set up where to go come in out left right from where you are to where you want to go. Also it can do north east if that is what you like. From instrument perspective or target. You can even customize the screen in whatever order of what you want to see vs not needed to see . I have a hard time seeing up close and hate wearing my glasses with safety goggles over them on certain sites so I customize it to what i need. Now if you don’t have it in trk edm mode simply take a shot where you stand so you know where to go for next point. Or i don’t know if its still in the software but I remember using a stake to a point from a point feature many years ago that helped me quickly identify direction and distance from where i stood. Of course i didn’t start surveying with map screens so I honestly am still getting use to all that. “
Yes as soon as you stake out the point, it automatically turns TRK back on (it would be off from taking the actual measurement) and then it will tell you in and out, left and right. Depending on the job and what we’re staking out, we might not know where the next point lands, so why would we want it to automatically turn there? Like I said, I would only turn to prior, if I thought it was going to be something we can’t lay out because of an obstruction.
“I do use the turn to function and i have never had issues with it.”
I don’t have issues other than the lack of a vertical toggle for it. You don’t have this issue, probably because you’re making your own csv’s and not worried about calcs having elevation of 0. I think it’s just habit for most of our office guys, calcs have always been 0 elevation as long as I’ve worked here. As far as modifying the CSV every time, first of all I don’t know if the office would even want me doing that, in case they’re worried I might fat finger a northing or easting or something. Either way, it would only be worth it on the occasional job where I might have to turn to a lot of points, but that would not be a typical day.
“I will tell you this I hardly ever use the joystick on screen or on the controller. Sometimes i use it for when i am in thick stuff and see a small hole and want to get it looking in that to lock but I never really needed it much. Once i have it locked and working i am usually just moving along. When we were staking last week we had several instances of traffic being stopped so no line of sight for a while. I simply paced up to about where the next point was supposed to be hit turn and it would usually lock as soon traffic cleared. My crew chief runs it way more than i and we had a beer or two discussing some of your issues and trying to figure out why as we tried hard to reinvent them. He has been staking on construction sites for years. He is a points guy. Give him points and he is happy. He has used carlson leica and Trimble. His opinion is what he has right now has been the best and easiest to use and stay locked when machines run between him and gun etc. now he loves the R12i and smiles when i say he can stake with that. He said it was made for the old men lol he just points the tip where he wants the helper to drive it lol.”
I’m not sure why such a difference between the machines. I never used the joystick almost ever when I had the Sokkia with the RC5 or the Leica with Powersearch. Just hit the search and it would turn to you. Trimble default is a maximum of I think 30 degrees that it can search? Otherwise you need to use the joystick to turn to you or the GPS search, which only works if it has a decent solution and you are a reasonable distance from the TS. The Leica also had a maximum of 5 seconds of prediction so I could often walk a steady speed past a vehicle or dirt pile or whatever and regain lock on the other side. The Trimble maximum is 2 or 3 and it doesn’t seem like it even tries that long. If I stop and wait where it lost me until the machine moves it will regain, but if I keep going I’m using the joystick.
One thing i am totally misunderstanding is you use TRK and semi active passive etc. TRK is the EDM period so distance only. The Passive and semi passive or active is for how the instrument tracks a prism mode. And it’s really only an improvement in the vertical when using semi active mode. Honestly. Now the 6mm issue is that vertical like cut fill or distance. If distance i can see that especially as you wait for the updated info from robot. It is slightly delayed. So when i am staking horizontal in out left right. And its in TRK mode so always shooting a distance. Once i get close say a few mm. Since you work in metric say 3mm. I drive my rebar set up on point and watch it. Because it was still locked and shooting as i was plumbing up etc so its constantly updating. Once it settles i do whatever bumping in out to get it to the requirements say less than 3mm in out left right. Don’t make a rookie mistake if you see or hear for whatever reason radio link down while it’s shooting. Pause as it will have the last message which could been delayed more. Now if you say semi active passive is for vertical i can believe that. But for distance not as much. That would mean if you are totally still the instrument is not within the manufacturer specs . I think if memory serves me it is only 1mm + 1ppm difference between std edm mode and trk edm mode
That’s good thinking if you’re doing a topo.
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