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Son-in-law wants to become a surveyor
mike-marks replied 3 years, 2 months ago 29 Members · 52 Replies
@jonathan50 Why are you negative on the career choice?
I love surveying, but I wouldn’t suggest it to my kids or many others. The top salaries are lower than other professions. The working conditions can be bad. We don’t get a lot of respect. Our own technology works against us, making us more efficient but the benefiting the client instead of us.
And now degree requirements are going to make it so our typical labor source is going to be blocked from obtaining licensure and advancing in the profession.
Supply and demand laws don’t seem to work to our benefit, but instead make it so other professions/trades are allowed to perform tasks which used to be under our purview.
Again, I wouldn’t be doing anything else, but having higher hopes for others asking my advice
- Posted by: @jph
The top salaries are lower than other professions. The working conditions can be bad. We don’t get a lot of respect. Our own technology works against us, making us more efficient but the benefiting the client instead of us.
Those are all our problems, and a result of our refusal to get with the program like other professions have. We can’t conduct ourselves like tradesmen (complete with the “we’re too good for education” and “real surveying is fieldwork, not that pansy office stuff” that are straight up cartoon caricatures of construction workers or waste collectors) yet demand the respect of professionals.
As long as we keep the bar low, the result is a massive variation in competence, knowledge and professionalism among our ranks, and a public which is poorly informed about what it takes to be a surveyor because of it.
The technology I use day-to-day is indifferent to billing rates. How it gets used is up to me, and how we charge for that is on us, not the clients. If there are some surveyors driving prices down, that’s our problem too.
Posted by: @jphAnd now degree requirements are going to make it so our typical labor source is going to be blocked from obtaining licensure and advancing in the profession.
I don’t hear engineers, attorneys, doctors, etc. complaining that their new hires are too well educated. Oh, they might complain that the kids are too cocky, but that’s an easy fix.
I want my labor source to be quality universities. It’s tough enough to bring along a good employee without having to teach them all the subjects that they should know BEFORE they start in on the path to licensure. Most universities place students in internships that can get them valuable “real-world” experience as they obtain their education, which is even better.
The fact that a large portion of our current labor source does not have fundamental knowledge is, again, our problem, and in and of itself is not an argument for keeping the bar for entry lower than other professions. It is absolutely possible to transition to a degree model without “blocking” current up-and-coming surveyors. A lengthy grace period works just fine.
Posted by: @jphSupply and demand laws don’t seem to work to our benefit, but instead make it so other professions/trades are allowed to perform tasks which used to be under our purview.
We can’t regulate technology, and as the technology we use becomes more accessible, others are (rightly) going to ask why they should be barred from using it.
In the past, a big part of what separated us from non-surveyors was the fact that it took a significant amount of time, energy, labor, and money to perform the measurement tasks that supplemented our work. But if that is really the only thing separating us, then we deserve to have that taken away.
Professionals are knowledge workers. With that comes the responsibility of ensuring members of our profession actually have knowledge, beginning with rigorous academic programs coupled with entry-level experience, moving on to structured mentorship before examination, and then after licensure continuing to work with more experienced surveyors to steadily gain knowledge.
Anyone can use a total station or GNSS gear. When we use that gear, we are not being paid to spit out numbers and throw them at the client. We have the added responsibility of using our training and knowledge to plan our work appropriately, so as to get the desired outcome. Then we use our technical expertise and specialized knowledge to quantify our results, tie them to specific datums if required, and harmonize our findings with real property records and previous survey work. This also requires enough education and fundamental knowledge to be able to clearly explain how we obtained the results we did, precisely what those results mean to our clients, and why we have a particular degree of confidence in those results.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman I am all for getting young people into surveying (I was one myself until just recently) and I think it’s a great field. That being said I would be surprised if I was still doing this at 65. I hope I am or have returned to it by then, but JPH makes some very valid points about surveying. We see this in many industries now but we have to be of a progressive mindset when it comes to our work and what we do with our lives. Education is a big part of that.
I can appreciate people emphasizing the importance of a bachelor’s degree, not because you need it to survey, but because you may need it for when surveying isn’t there for you. Having an education (and some people won’t know what this even is until they’re called upon to really use theirs and they can’t find it) is something people are missing these days. 19-year-old students I try to mentor now can’t see the value of the tree in their forest. They just assume the forest will always be there, but what is there if we have never encountered one of the trees that makes up the forest? We see the world differently than those coming up now.
As professionals it is our duty to prepare ourselves for the future. Using a hundred-foot steel tape and chaining pins to measure long distances is the past. But, much of the work we follow was conducted in that manner. We toss around errors of a fraction of an inch today when following work where the error could have been in excess of a foot. What is viewed as perfect measurement today causes us to lose sight of the fact that the ancient monuments controls. Those who have only worked in the field with modern instruments need to be taught that their “perfect” measurements can be the wrong answer.
All education is a good thing for a person. It brings balance into our thinking. Better to learn before making the errors than to only learn from mistakes.
We must encourage those who think they want to do what we do.
Wow what a negative view of our profession. I know there are many that feel that way, but for every one who thinks like this there are two who are kicking themselves for not heading towards a surveying career as soon as they finished high school.
I happen to think the working conditions are wonderful. Most do have to go through a period early in their careers where they have little control of their time, but that is true of most careers. I would take a few years working at beck and call of a PLS over a medical residency or 80 he weeks working to pay off law school loans.
If the technology is working against you, take a hard look at your billing. If you are billing the same hourly rate after you buy an expensive piece of technology that saves you time, change that. That is crazy.
The complaint that you can’t raise prices because of competition rings hollow in the comparison with other careers. Just like a surveyor, a lawyer or a general practitioner can scrape by in rural area without much economic activity where supply exceeds demand, or they can move sowhere their skills can be better compensated for.
One of the great things about surveying is that if you are willing to forgo high income you can set up shop anywhere, but don’t blame the profession for not bending to your desire to live in a particular place.
Why complain about being treated badly and degeee requirments in the same breath? If we want to be treated as professionals we need to act like professionals. There is nothing wrong with the trades, but they don’t generally offer the same compensation potential or the power of self determination that the professions do. The reality of the economy won’t allow us to act like tradesmen and be treated like professionals.
To the original poster, dont let the naysayers convince you otherwise, surveying can be a satisfying and rewarding career, but just like any other career it is not a good fit for everyone.
As said, I love surveying. But it’s tough, at least here in the rural NE. I’m not going to move to Boston. And Burlington doesn’t offer much money. Do a search for surveying jobs in Vermont, you’ll see LS positions offering $25/hr.
Most people I know stumbled into surveying. Most college kids want something more glamorous. So the people you get sometimes can only move up so far, and then either give it up or are full-time technicians.
Degree doesn’t necessarily equal professional. That’s a false relationship.
I’m not complaining about my own choices, but when asked I’d recommend something different for others.
Whatever the choice, make sure the school and courses are ABET accredited.
I think you pointed out what makes surveying attractive to some people. “I am not going to move to Boston”.
Attorney’s, Doctors, and engineers also make a fraction of what they would in Boston in rural New England. Although that may be changing with the prevalence of virtual work. Surveying does require more location specific work than most other professions.
Of course most college kids won’t be attracted to surveying, but most also won’t be attracted to waste water engineering.
A degree doesn’t necessarily mean professional, but a professional licensure with a four year degree requirement does by definition.
If you mean it doesn’t mean a professional attitude and professional conduct, you are right, but it certainly helps, in the same way driving the speed limit doesnt necessarily mean safer driving.
It is hard to earn professional respect in a room full of high power attorneys with one other surveyor who can’t or won’t speak in grammatically correct sentences and refuses or is unable to give an opinion on anyhting other than measurements.
A four year degree requirement is intended to help ensure that the surveyor in a room can successfully communicate and confidently lead the discussion with their professional opinion.
The great thing about surveying is it allows us to be influential in a room full of professionals and get muddy in the woods, or sweaty in the dessert, or…. in the same career.
It doesn’t get many people rich, but it does provide a very comfortable living to many.
What would you suggested to someone like you just starting out instead?
I’d suggest engineering, nursing, and accounting, just off the top of my head.
One problem in rural areas is that there may be only a few employers, and they’ve been there for years. You’re stuck with them unless you open your own shop. And then you may have no work since everyone uses the guys they’ve known.
I’m licensed in more than one state, and decided to commute to make my money and live where I do. Not everyone can do the same.
Without a doubt, I’d have more options if I were a PE or CPA. I’m good with my choice, but it hasn’t always been easy.
@jph Great explanation. Thanks!
I’ll chime in for the surveying program at University of Maine. The program has undergone some changes since I attended. In my day there was a bit more emphasis on the theoretical side of mapping technologies. Now, the focus is more towards the practice of land surveying work.
@aliquot The following are my reasons:
1. Surveying work is dependent on other activities. If construction activities, real estate sales, government infra spending are down, so will our source of income. You can only get so many boundary disputes and flood-related certifications. Doctors, lawyers, teachers will always have patients or clients no matter the state of the economy.
2. The technology is working against us. New instruments make our work go faster but those same instruments with their ease of use make it easier for almost everyone without a surveying degree to use them. What takes several weeks to measure – plant interior, forest land, mountain areas – can now be surveyed in 1/4 the time it takes using Lidar.
3. I am not sure about other’s experience but it is true that our profession is being looked down by other professions like those in the construction and legal fields that hire us as part of their requirements. I once had a client’s staff that DEMANDED that I attend a meeting with less than an hour’s notice as if I was his direct employee. I had a shouting match with him during the meeting because he was the type that kind of brags that he knows how surveying works but really can’t explain it to his boss what the problem was with the boundary line so the need that I attend the meeting immediately. I had to explain to his boss that I can only give a final report on the problem after doing the field work and doing all the computations. Apparently, civil engineering works has the habit of making daily progress reports that I myself am not doing.
4. The work is difficult. We go into an area that is usually undeveloped and thick with vegetation to do the survey. You have to camp out in remote areas with no proper sleeping or toilet facilities. That takes a certain type of personality to pull it off.
5. Profit is a hit/miss. You can make a big profit for a certain project and use up all of it while waiting for the next one which may come or not.
I’ll key my answers to your points.
1. There is always surveying to be done. Learn new things and sell the service.
2. If my doc buys a new MRI machine I pay more than when he only had xray equipment. Charge for value, nit time.
3. You have to be respectable to get respect. If the client is the problem hang up or drive away. Life is too sgort to work for jerks and cheapskates.
4. Paid camping.
5. Thar’s a business model issue. Build the right relationships and refer back to number 1.
In order to make good money you have to make good business choices. Surveying has been a rewarding career for me. As I approach the end of it I can’t help but lament some of my choices. Becoming a Surveyor isn’t one of them.
I would make sure the son in law check into taking all of NCEES?? exams as soon as he can. The older he gets the tougher it gets. Just took my last exam a few months before our 2nd kid was born while working multiple jobs. Very difficult to find enough time the older I get
- Posted by: @thebionicman
2. If my doc buys a new MRI machine I pay more than when he only had xray equipment. Charge for value, nit time.
But everyone runs to the doctor to have an MRI result explained to them. A LAS file can be processed using a freeware without the need for any input from a surveyor.
- Posted by: @jonathan50
But everyone runs to the doctor to have an MRI result explained to them. A LAS file can be processed using a freeware without the need for any input from a surveyor.
If you are talking about LiDAR or photogrammetric data, without ground truthing or verification check shots that LAS dataset is suspect. Good clients (and good surveyors/photogrammetrists/remote sensing specialists) understand this and write that into the scope. It is required to meet ASPRS/NSSDA specs, which are the gold standard that clients (worth working for) will use.
And in many areas, public sector work requires adherence to those standards, and often requires control work and ground truthing to be done by a land surveyor. Good private-sector clients also understand that surveyors are the best option for meeting the required accuracy of the check shots, ensuring that datums are aligned, etc.
Processing remote sensing data reliably and correctly requires quite a bit of training. If a chunk of clients decide to cheap out on their data collection and bypass the folks best qualified to do the work, I’d rather not work for them anyways. Eventually, when it comes back to bite them or they get in a bind over bad data, we’ll make good money fixing their mistakes.
And if not, then there’s going to be a reduced need for surveyors. The ones that survive will not be the ones that only know how to gather data and spit it out. It will be the ones that can design and implement workflows tailored to the needs of the project, as well as quality control checks that ensure final deliverables meet specifications – and do all that efficiently.
(I’m leaving the legal boundaries part of our profession out of this only because I don’t see that going away anytime soon. That will still be an integral part of what we do, and we will still be required on any projects that require placing boundaries on the ground. I’m speaking more of what will likely happen on the “geomatics” side.)
Like I have been saying over and over for years now, we’re not technical specialists. We’re professionals. Knowledge workers. Our value is derived from knowledge, not a piece of equipment.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman But the data file doesn’t just fall from the sky (unless you fail to keep track of drone battery level). Somebody invested time and money in the equipment and knowledge required to capture the data, process it and extract a useful product. Surveyor or not they are flat stupid if they don’t charge for all of that and more.
We have lost a lit of work as the market strips away functions. If we can show prospective clients a higher value when they have us perform those functions we will get the work. If a kid can go to walmart and buy a drone, download freeware andconvert it to what the client needs I’m OK giving up the work. In all but the simplest of cases that isn’t going to fly.
Forget all that, smack him upside his head! Jk! I have 4 daughters so might be on your boat one day
This does make applying for a licence more straightforward, but when push comes to shove almost every state (every?) state will accept any accredited bachelor’s degree with appropriate major.
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