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I??ve done boundary surveys that were used to obtain a mortgage but I??ve never done a mortgage certificate or mortgage survey. I was first exposed to that substandard type of work during the brief time I worked in Charlotte. NC. I worked to hard to get my license to let someone else define my work.
“In my part of Upstate New York the record dimensions rule, so we show the monuments refenced to the record.”
Please elaborate – in 50+ years of practice I have never heard this. Is there a local court decision that supports this? I have always beleived that record dimensions are pretty much the last resort…
The only time I can see relying on only the record dimensions is if I were working in a recent subdivision with good control monuments and they??re small lots.
I recently picked up and read the Jeff Lucas book, “The Pincushion Effect” and would highly recommend to all surveyors. My views were challenged a bit, but overall I found his arguments to be compelling and backed up with case studies.
One of my biggest takeaways was his trying to make clear the distinction between the ‘What’ and the ‘Where’ of a given parcel of land. In a retracement, our job is render an opinion on the ‘Where’ question, that ‘What’ is immutable and unchanging.
It’s a concept we all learn, but Lucas’ book gave me a better understanding and better vocabulary to discuss.
@olemanriver High turnover rate is the biggest weakness of larger firms. Reliable and effective methods are rarely made standard procedure when “Joe” becomes “Sam” before you’ve even spent a 3rd lunch with “Joe”, and “Sam” likely wasn’t trained properly. Bad procedures set in at large firms, and they are often impossible to undo.
@macheteman69 I am seeing that as very true statement. And to add to those who start with the larger firms and thats the only place they have ever been right or wrong anything different is always wrong so new ideas are squashed. No innovative thinking or hey we can achieve the same answer by doing this. Nope we have always done it this way not change now.
@olemanriver LOL you mean the 20 year mushrooms that get into management and stay there by the Peter principle? Yeah, dealt with them too often
Then there is the circumstance where the record deed does not close by a substantial amount, (and every corner cited is a point)
This discussion fits right into my comments on the thread for a County Surveyor opportunity in Yuba County, CA. One needs to spend a lot of time in the management portion of operations in order to be an effective County Surveyor. As broad a spectrum of employers as “appropriate” before applying for such a position. Twenty employers in 20 years would put you on the “Do not interview” list. A single employer for 20 years might get you on that same list. Maybe.
@holy-cow Understanding who you are following is a big thing to me. I have called several people as we are retracing these old plots of land that have just been willed down and asking those experts in that geographical area i have no experience in as how they walked so i can track and follow them the best of my ability. So far the ls is not involved yet so i am trying to get as many answers and information done ahead of time. So once he does sit down on all of these many boundaries we can finalize them. Its him I and 3 crews. A very tight window and he is running around like a chicken with his head cut off going to meetings and building the business. Trying to find more work as we are a new office. He has his plate full for sure. I am juggling all the little details so we don’t miss something. Hopefully i can pull it off but i still have a lot to learn. I have slotted a drive by tomorrow on a job thats not to far from my farm to just see what it looks like. Have a few roles of flagging. Hoping we get the job if not some surveyor can thank me later if those corner calls i do make the rebars and pipes come up and wave at me. I need to buy my own mag locator for this and keep it in the farm truck I guess lol.
@macheteman69 I worked in government and the Peter Principal is embraced. I have seen people promoted because they could not be fired and no one wanted them so promotion was the solution to let them be someone else’s problem. Not always but in certain divisions. So glad i have moved back to the private side but mid to large companies fall into that trap as well. The ones who know seem to move on to a higher position at a different company. The ones who do not just keep staying. Not all but like you said some do.
The tasks numbered one and two in the OP blow by two things that must be said.
Task One is recognizing evidence before locating anything. Artificial monuments are not the end all.
Task two is to evavuluate and rank the evisence.
Task three is to apply the law and recover the original and established boundaries.
Task four is repeat one through three until clarity and certainty are evident.
Task five is express the result and get it into the record.
Complying with the laws, rules, and standard of care at every step is assumed.
My point is simple. We are a profession of evidence and law. Measurement is just one bit part.
Hi,
Are you saying that if you found an original monument, let’s say a stone pile, from the original deed description of the property, you hold the bearing and distance in the deed description, even if the description says “to the stone pile?”
Also, on a side note, how far back do you search the records? do you go back to the creating document, and hold those bearings and distances? Or do you hold whatever is in the newest deed (Assuming they are different for this scenario.)
If you don’t hold monuments, how do you place the geometry on the ground?
Do you choose to hold one monument? How do you choose which monument is “correct”
Is this how you practice in your region of NY also?
Thanks
Joe
I’ve seen the same thing from folks who followed one licensed surveyor/sole proprietor also. Some people are just like that. Not sure if it’s a “larger firm thing,” I’ve seen it from both.
Joe
@rover83 very true. Now I usually well I try and have the property computed up from deed or plat in the beginning. Once I or the crews have been in the field I will move translate rotate rubber sheet or eyeball that mathematically deed and sorta best fit it at first to everything that was found. It allows me to evaluate the found monument’s to what the Intent of the deed was. Now its all on my cogo layer and it gets turned off then once i have proven that the monument’s are the corners i hold the monument’s. The priority of calls comes to mind. The bearings and distances are to aid us in the whole situation. I think your term Deed Staker or button pusher is just great Now there are situations where we are talking the deed bearings and distances fit the monument so well no since and changing as there are no discrepancies to show.
The situation that I run into a lot is the deed has bearings and distances, so it was surveyed, but there is no called for monuments, adjoiners or a survey. There are often artificial monuments found near the mathematical corners as laid out in the deed, but these monuments have no pedigree. We do a best fit of the uncalled for found monuments with the metes description. Sometimes I can tell based on how the descriptions are written and what the found monuments are as to who the last surveyor was, but if it is a ½” rebar or a random piece of pipe it could have been set by a land owner and just be close.
New York is not a recording state and some counties will only allow us to record subdivision maps. There is also a dumb law that basically says that a deed shall not be filed with a reference to a map if the map has not been or is not being filed with it. (N.Y. Real Property Law 333-A; Maps to Be Filed).
You would be following a common survey in my world. The only difference is that the vast majority of surveys ever done are on file somewhere with the County.
I’m curious to know if you feel your work/maps are in accordance with the NYSAPLS Code of Practice? Thank you.
The situation that I run into a lot is the deed has bearings and distances, so it was surveyed, but there is no called for monuments, adjoiners or a survey. There are often artificial monuments found near the mathematical corners as laid out in the deed, but these monuments have no pedigree. We do a best fit of the uncalled for found monuments with the metes description. Sometimes I can tell based on how the descriptions are written and what the found monuments are as to who the last surveyor was, but if it is a ½” rebar or a random piece of pipe it could have been set by a land owner and just be close.
New York is not a recording state and some counties will only allow us to record subdivision maps. There is also a dumb law that basically says that a deed shall not be filed with a reference to a map if the map has not been or is not being filed with it. (N.Y. Real Property Law 333-A; Maps to Be Filed).
I advise doing a thorough study of NY case law on boundaries. Common practice among local surveyors and lore passed between surveyors can be, and often is wrong.
One thing that hasn’t been commented on yet is the land owner’s corner. The way moat US courts look at it, a corner set by a land owner can actually be stronger evidence of the true corner location than one set by a surveyor.
Unless the corner the surveyor is setting is a new corner (or a few other edge cases) a surveyors’ monument is only the corner if the relevent land owners accept it as a corner. Surveyors provide their proofesional opinion of a corner location. They have no authority to declare a corner position. Thankfully, the public usually respects our opinions and adopts our corners.
A land owner set corner already has the blessing of at least one land owner, so you are halfway there. You aredoing anyone any good by setting a second corner monument (or planting an unmarked corner) an insignificant distance away.
I have Jeff Lucas’s book and I read it, but it is very much another text book and I did not get much new info out of it.
In my part of Upstate New York the record dimensions rule, so we show the monuments refenced to the record.
You’re going to tell me more about this, because it sounds like the survey would have a call to a point, and then cute little language like “North 0.53′, East 0.87′ from a found steel rod”.
I am violently opposed to doing that, and in fact, if I voiced my full opinion in this forum, I’d get a lifetime ban.
Something like that, but it is usually parallel and perpendicular ties from the lines at the corner.
Sort of like showing ties to a fence post or some other object near a corner or along a line.The ties hardly ever get called out in the description, the monument just gets omitted.
I’m sure you would not like the way we do it, but I also know that the attorneys that order most of the property transfer surveys locally would quickly find a different surveyor if every survey showed different bearings and distances than the deed description.
It sounds like the surveyors in the area have allowed attorneys to practice surveying. We have all encountered attorneys like this, but most of us (I hope) see this as an opportunity to educate the attorney and don’t let a unlicensed person yell us how to do our job.
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