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Retracement Survey consensus among professionals
thebionicman replied 2 years, 8 months ago 27 Members · 109 Replies
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One thing I just noticed about this format is it puts the original question at the top of each page so it looks like the questioner keeps asking the same question repeatedly.
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An explicit basis of bearings tied to the rest of the world is very helpful.
But convergence is insignificant to the OP situation, given that they are arguing over feet whereas convergence on the whole subdivision would be maybe a tenth.
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Thanks Nate, I appreciate the knowledge and insight. I really want to hire the town father grade of surveyor. He is the ??best? and currently our county commissioner up for re-election. I tried hiring him twice. First time he tells me my neighbor, by name can ??tell me where the line is?, and then the second time told me he didn??t want to get involved.
We spoke to someone today who will look over everything tonight. We have access to two unrecorded maps that are the adjoiner son both sides of our lots. These maps will hopefully be helpful because both use the same two points on my property as a tie to their work.
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- @bill93, yes, I know, but, if you provide the proper metadata, then the rotational paradigm becomes fixed. If it is not provided, then it is still flapping in the breeze, as far as retracement is concerned.
Nate - Ps, and, if it is based on “true”, but is really on “SPC grid”, that can be feet of difference. Or, if it’s Willy nilly, that also can be feet, and many feet.
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- @bill93, yes, I know, but, if you provide the proper metadata, then the rotational paradigm becomes fixed. If it is not provided, then it is still flapping in the breeze, as far as retracement is concerned.
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Interesting, ok. It??s an unrecorded map with a new description written for the deed per this survey and his map is oriented to ??deed north?. Not sure what that means as far as your statement. I would assume that it is true north. Done in 1998 before the put in the geodetic grid tie 1300?? north of us. What I find interesting is the old plats intent was for all lots to have parallel lines of N 1?ø E. If you run out the distances of the old plat only one monument is ??close? within a foot. So to base a survey completely on the old plat you would have to ignore all the monuments on the ground and change established lots. That is what surveyor number 6 wants to do. I did ask him, how would that work? You going to knock on my neighbors door and say hey they own 11?? feet of your property now? The neighbors would say no, that they had a survey in 2012 that put irons in the ground and to get lost… tricky industry for you professionals
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If the ties are made with GPS, even with an autonomous base position, the basis of bearings coming out of the dc will be in the input projection system – typically state plane. That would be the simplest thing to do and therefore very likely.
Variance in convergence on a site as small as a common subdivision, or even across a small town, will be negligible. Fugedabowdit.
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Posted by: @jmk83
. So to base a survey completely on the old plat you would have to ignore all the monuments on the ground and change established lots.
So…..if you were starting with a blank slate. Like say this thing was platted and monumented in 1950 but no one ever built anything until today…. the original lot corner monuments would hold. If they couldn’t be found then you would go back to the out bounds and recalc the whole thing and reset. Everyone would be ok with that, in that situation. But that’s not what you have.
As it is you and your neighbors, not knowing where their common lines are, have employed various means to place them, and come to and agreement, over the years. These are “practical locations“. Practical Location is a form of unwritten agreement which is enforceable. Once a line is set by practical location it is the line forevermore (unless changed by written agreement or adverse possession). Some of these agreements were based on the work of surveyors. Some, perhaps all, of those surveys have been of dubious quality. The fact that the surveyor set monuments is not necessarily definitive, that fact that the adjoiners agreed to accept the results of the surveys is.
These unwritten agreements are enforcable from the moment they are made. The problem lies in proving years later that there was such an agreement. As long as the agree-ers continue to agree there is no problem. If they get to squabbling one party or another may “forget” about the agreement. Or the property changes hands and the original agree-ers move on, or pass on. For that reason evidence of the agreement, such as a fence line, that has stood for a long time, is taken to be proof that their was an agreement. This in known in law as recognition and acquiesence.
So, in summary – it doesn’t always matter if a survey was one right or not. It matter most that the adjoiners accept the results and act in reliance upon it.
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I’m late to the game, as usual, but after reading through this thread, I have to ask the OP the question if they really are wanting a survey done? I say this because the post where they contacted a very reputable surveyor who told them his cost and timeframe, they said they didn’t want to pay that much. OP, you have a problem, you want an answer. You do not have a simple problem, a simple survey will not make this better. It will cost you lots of time and effort (=money) to get this resolved, and it may not resolve in your favor. The Op specifically is asking about retracements, to do a proper retracement will involve going back as far as possible in not only deed records, possibly for surrounding subdivsions as well as this one, but time in the field to gather as much evidence as possible. The local surveyors who are choosing to not do this work probably have an idea of the problems here, and as such, know they either do not want the headache, or do not feel they can charge enough to make ends meet after spending so much time on this issue. The real answer is that if you want to have a definitive answer, hire a reputable surveyor, one who will do the research, and who will make a point to talk to you, the other landowners, the other surveyors, and to any attorneys to come up with the best solution to this problem, maintaining the lines to the best of the subdivisions intent. There is no cheap, fast or easy in this scenario.
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Thank you Monte for responding!
This is a strange situation. Our neighbors initiated a civil complaint against us. Their entire case is we cannot get a surveyor to agree with us. Their cousin ran off the first surveyor we hired. We built a fence within the bounds of our property that the two surveyors claimed his mistake. It??s a Front yard divider, classy, cedar split rail fence. It??s beautiful. We have it running to the center of an 65 year old maple stump. Thence running three more posts protecting two old mock orange bushes. Our tree guy was run off from cutting and grinding with threats of a lawsuit.
Since then, not a single survey will hold the marks on my property. There is NO consensus amongst professionals.
We are the defendants, therefore do not have the burden of proof.
we have a mountain of evidence. Documents, deeds, plats, resurvey maps, And tax records, show that we built our fence in the right spot.
I do want a survey. I want quality work on the subject property. I do not want a client advocate, or a rubber stamp. At this point we just need someone to put the raw data between marks on the ground with deed north orientation, because the dream of having our own plat has been crushed. Everyone in the neighborhood would like to see this end. They are all willing to share their own plats.
Anybody willing to take a trip to the smoky mountains, NC. We??ll set you up at Harrahs Cherokee. We can look through all the evidence and solve resolve this matter. Or, We just defend ourselves
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Posted by: @jmk83
Their cousin ran off the first surveyor we hired.
I have a problem with this statement. It may be that the cousin changed the 1st surveyors mind. But “ran him off”? That’s just wrong. If true, that guy should lose his license.
It is likely that the several surveyors are having trouble agreeing because the evidence is subject to multiple reasonable interpretations. Under such conditions, the cousins proration may just be the best solution.
Of course, this is just speculation from the other side of the country.
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@norman-oklahoma
Norman, yes I do believe this surveyor should lose his license.
He was not clear and factual with our interaction. He is not clear and factual in his recorded map. He did disparage multiple surveyors from doing any work for us. He messaged them while they were doing field work that we are bad people. Just the appearance of a conflict of interest with family in regards to them disputing the line should deter him from what he did. The county commissioner also refused to do our survey even though he mapped the adjoining ancient property and the next parcel to ours. He told us our neighbor can tell us where the line is. His maps are public and tell us where the line is.
This is the most bizarre situation because these neighbors told us a lot of ??stories?. They have used deception and their prominence in a small town land grab shakedown. It??s really sick.The cousins proration just gives her what she wanted, that no evidence can prove. The frontage on the street is 97?? +-
Prorating one lot up the street and not the entire street cannot be the right approach, and all the dividing lot lines intent are parallel. They are parallel with the marks on the ground. What the cousin does is different and ignoring original marks.Why would the surveyor who is phasing out into retirement, third one on the property. Say his mark is wrong, spray paint the original marker orange then give us all the maps of adjoiners including cousins work? Why would he say to us, ??you guys are smart, you can figure it out, and that it went to N.C. supreme courts that home owners can survey their own property?. Crazy right?
Recently picked up ??Evidence and procedure for boundary location?? and am learning more.
Another surveying firm, told us they don??t handle this type of thing and to ??build your fence, possess the land?.
No one wants to touch it, and the few who made it out here have backed out.
The first surveyor who said he made a mistake will not describe the mistake he made to our attorney. Even though him and the cousin told us exactly what he did wrong, before surveying. But the cousin didn??t stick to that story.
It??s bizarre
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The situation, the behavior of the surveyors, that you are describing is bizarre, IMO. And the one thing I’ve noticed about myself is that the one common element in all my dysfunctional relationships is me 😉 .
It’s common, and usually wise, to clam up when questioned by attorneys. We have that right, if not always the ability.
If you have maps from these surveyors (other than the 1950 plat and deed that you posted) we would all love to see them.
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@norman-oklahoma
Norman,
The three original monuments are all 1? open top pipes. Their are two on the west line of tract 2 and one at the boundary four lots on the east tract 1&2
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@norman-oklahoma
Right, the corner monuments will hold because they have been excepted and documented through generations. The last surveyor wants to use distance from the outside control which in effect will change the lots from where it is and has been accepted and documented. Which distance from the old plat revealed a descepancy of distance where that corner monument ??should be?. They have all searched exhaustively for where it should be, but the problem is it is where it is, at a power pole and fence. Our deed further describes that tract 2 runs with the line of tract 1 and terminates at the corner of lot 28 and 30. The intent is continuous lines at the same bearing. 22 years ago an agreement was made with the adjoiner (not neighbors that are suing) because the line on tract 2 runs about 18? onto a poured concrete driveway carport. They extended the line out 1.5?ø pie slice so that their property is not encroaching.
The neighbors filed additionally that if they can??t get their map recognized as the boundary they claim adverse possession. Which they have been adversely posing for three years parking on the land since the old lady passed away. They further had the 65 year old Maple tree cut down, ??with permission? from our predecessors.
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Consensus is a lie, an invention of the PC ‘go along to get along’ people.
You already have a consensus among surveyors: Nobody wants to change anything. Why is that?
Could be when you can’t find a surveyor, the court will appoint one. Might not be a bad idea if it’s one from out of the area, and you could ask the court to so require, giving the cousin and conflict of interest anecdotes.
Leads me to wonder why we don’t have public surveyors like public defenders. Maybe the state societies could add that to their shingles. -
Yes, I wish we still had county surveyors. Ours would be the commissioner, but I believe he has a conflict of interest due to the ??your neighbor can tell where the line is comment?.
The consensus seems to be to change it many ways not holding monuments and doing something different from the intent of the instrument. Seems to be a matter of integrity and principles rather than consensus. -
The sequential selling of land vs a simultaneous conveyance…. Who ever is first has the senior property over the juniors because you can not sell the same land twice as the principle of ownership. If the sandwich lots are last then they are late to the party and dont get the cake and eat it too…..
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