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Retracement Survey consensus among professionals
thebionicman replied 2 years, 8 months ago 27 Members · 109 Replies
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Thank David, I get your point and have been told this before. And as annoying as the phrase is that it??s the principle of it, it really is just that. Especially when we are dealing with matters of law and a profession that is based on principles. I understand that this pie slice is going to cost a big stack of cash and that hasn??t stopped us from sticking to our guns and riding this out now. We knew what we were getting into. Just shocked that someone can actually dispute the record and deeds, when there wasn??t a monument in the ground to dispute. We seriously considered ??rolling over? at the start of this. I think their continued lies made our decision to stick to our principles.
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Posted by: @jmk83
…..proration in a simultaneous conveyance is the absolute last resort in this situation and bottom of the barrel, meaning he has nothing else he could go off of.
A word about this …. if the differences between record and measured dimensions differ by an amount attributable to just normal small imperfection in measurement (ie/ a few hundreths or tenths of a foot across a lot, perhaps), then proration is appropriate. It amounts to calibrating your measuring device to be in tune with the original surveyors tape. If there has clearly been a blunder (ie/the differences between measured and record is measured in feet), then proration is, as stated, a last resort.
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Sitting here at a keyboard, I can’t say who is right and who is wrong. You might be 100% in the right. There is always another side to the story and they may feel just as righteous as you. It sounds like you need to find the right surveyor to come in, be it the answer you want or not.
A short story. A guy in a nearby town had a property and a neighbor had their property surveyed. The survey used the wrong monument and this guy could not get into his out building because of it. I knew what was wrong but the guy couldn’t afford to get the survey done. He had open heart surgery in the past, no insurance and was basically making payments on his heart. I talked my boss into letting me do this survey cheap, $500 cheap, for probably $2000 worth of work.
We did our survey, it showed he was correct, the neighbor hired another surveyor that agreed with me and the matter went away. The guy we worked for had been in court and was being pressured to give up and accept the wrong survey. If we hadn’t helped out he would have been screwed. The problem is the neighbor had to hire two surveyors, the first of which was wrong, hire a lawyer and wasted money in the process.
In your case, I don’t think the neighbors survey is so obviously wrong, you have had a bunch of people out there trying to survey it and they won’t finish it. If the other survey really is wrong, I understand you wanting to make it correct. You just need to find the right guy.
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@brian-allen
Yes, I would love to pay for quality work. I would also love for the original monuments to hold, but what does Mick Jagger day? You can??t always get what you want. Which doesn??t seem like anyone is willing to even try that as a starting point. And yes, we are over simplifying this, going off recorded work conducted over the decades that established and/or described these boundaries. I haven??t sued anyone. I??m the defendant. I made every attempt to talk it out neighborly. The wife got upset when I started planting close to the boundary so I said I would hire a surveyor so we can define the boundary and move forward. When their cousin came in and supplanted the guy we hired, red flags went off as to what is going on out here. I can??t imagine a surveyor conducting malpractice in a conflict of interest, but when he told me I was a ??junior lot and they are a senior lot, and you get what you get?, again raised red flags after running off the first man we hired. Something is wrong with this situation. I??ve noticed it??s easy to blame the one sharing this story as a few have on here and professionally. I??m sharing the story because I??m seeking the truth, I??m seeking the facts. Anything other than that is a waste of time. All we want is what we purchased, nothing more, nothing less.
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@norman-oklahoma
Yes, that is what Kris Kline was telling me.
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Yes, need to find the right guy! The problem I found is how to approach the surveyor for work. Tell him about the mess or don??t tell him anything? Ask him to draw up a boundary agreement with the monuments in the ground? Most that have been contacted hear a bit of what??s going on and do not want to get involved. A large number of them say they can do the job then back out because a conflict of interest with the neighbors or their surveyor. Would love to know a good approach to hire for this situation without coming acros as crazy bitch who is telling a surveyor how to do his job. We would love some consensus among professionals about how to approach this retracement.
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Sounds like you found someone, but you didn’t like his schedule or cost. Maybe he is the right guy.
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Most of us don’t know who is right or wrong.
The Cousin Surveyor makes an appearance of a conflict of interest.
I had a relative ask me to survey their lot. I looked into it as a favor. It was an ambiguous situation like you have. A subdivision by Deeds rather than one map and the Deed descriptions conflicted with one another. After that I politely declined to get involved because decisions would have to be made about the evidence and if the neighbor didn’t like my determination naturally they would view me as having a conflict. If it was a simple situation then I would’ve done it.
You have two options. One: Fight the neighbor which will mean you need an Expert which is very expensive. Going to Court without an Expert in a boundary case is foolishness, you may as well not waste your money. There is no guarantee you will win in Court, the Court may even split the baby.
Or Two: if you can accept the neighbor’s survey (as much as you hate it) then settle out of court, have the lawyer make it legally binding only on that one boundary (not the other three), and build a fence to enforce the agreement. There is something to be said for peace on your homestead. You can go broke fighting legal cases, win or lose.
Option three would be make an offer of compromise and see what happens.
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Yea maybe you??re right.
So here is the adjoining deed, it states the common boundary between four parcels, two of which are mine. All other monuments measure up to this within a foot of closure except for the new stake by surveyor #2. What doesn??t line up is this description with the old plat it??s 5-6?? short of where it should be in distance. Would you hold this monument if this was the evidence you found?
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Yea, I like those options. Problem is we built a fence based off of what surveyor number 1 and 2 corroborated was his mistake, (3ft wrong) We came back 3.5?? set back from the first boundary set. Problem is the 2nd surveyor set his stake 9?? away from the first. What is super interesting though is if you plot out number 2 map, it comes to where our fence is, not six feet west where his stake is. His own map and stake are in conflict of each other. That could be the easiest for the court. The fence becomes the new boundary, which is either what number 2 reports or 3?? back from the first stake. Weird situation.
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Dave has a good answer.
I personally have gotten in real deep on this kind of thing. Come up with answers.
You said yourself that it was a pity that the agreement was not reduced to writing.
Indicating that if it had been, you would be happy. No fight.
What if you went to the neighbor, with a complete offer of peace, gave up some land, had a surveyor document it, with some good monuments, and quitclaimed the new deeds to each other. You might loose a bit of land. (You can’t take it with you) you might regain your neighbor/friend. You might live a little longer. You might live happier. And, be a bit richer to boot.
The principle here is: “The way up, is down”. To quote an old proverb, “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall”.
Besides, it deprives an attorney of money, gives a good low stress job to a surveyor, and perhaps reconciles you and “that bad neighbor”. 🙂
N
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According to Epictetus, it isn’t your neighbor moving the boundary which is causing your suffering, it is your reaction to it.
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Haha, that??s pretty good. Yea, don??t worry about it when getting sued is not that helpful. Don??t worry about it when they threaten you and you 3 year old child is not that helpful. But I get your point with the message.
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Yea, I see your point. So the moral of the story is if someone tries to harm you, let them. If someone is deceptive, try to be their friend. If someone wants to take from you, let them. Kind of strange but ok.
Back to retracement law or principles. The problem seems to lie with having two parcels from two old plats. I would like to find a surveyor that can combine the parcels, do a new description, plat, and the neighbors can have the 3 feet on the other side of the fence.
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Dismissive of all advice and continues to plow ahead with his litany of complaints. Best Regards.
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@warrenward
Thank you all for your responses, and I apologize from coming across as a homeowner that will not listen to advice.
I have taken everything you have all said in and I believe I figured out the issue.
The intent of the instrument in Our Deed is to have parallel lines that are continuous running north and South.
There are three original monuments that are 1? open top pipes on the property. One is located at the power pole on the east side that is the boundary of four parcels per previous surveys and deeds. The other two are located at the grapevine on the west side and is the boundary between three parcels.
The grapevine has two pipes cited in two adjoining surveys, on each side of the property. The pipes are at a bearing of North 00?ø 10 minutes 16 seconds WEST referenced in Kevin Ensley??s survey of 1998. He uses that as a tie for the eastern adjoining survey where he performed a boundary agreement to correct an encroachment of improved lands on the east side of Our lot.
Surveyor number 2 projects and ties the grapevine monuments north up to the street of Grandview Circle at a bearing of N 00?ø 10?? 16 seconds WEST for the Howard survey in 2012 which is an adjoining property on my west side. Owens reports this bearing as North 1?ø East per deed descriptions. The grapevine stakes actual bearing are N 00?ø 10?? 16? west as opposed the the deed call for N 1?ø East.
In an attempt to retrace the Our property while holding the original monuments and distances we are able to perform a boundary survey using the actual bearing of the grapevine monuments of North 00?ø 10?? 16? West for the entire west line as it is currently monumented up to the street and use that same bearing for the North East common boundary with the Eastern adjoining property.
Our fence is within those bounds and we ask that an iron be restored at Our North East corner to uphold and maintain the original controlling monuments and deed calls of all properties involved. We ask that surveyor number 2 map of the eastern adjoiner property be revised to reflect the original controlling pins and the intent of the deed calls of all parties involved and remove the encroaching pins.
If you hold the actual angle between the grapevine pins to traverse the deed calls on Our property it successfully retraces the bounds of the instrument and gives everyone their respective distances.
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Bearings are not absolute. They are relative.
Many/nearly all/most landowners are devoid of this fact. Comparing bearings, between surveys, is a useless exercise, unless you determine that they have the same datum underneath them. This is one of the hardest concepts for the general public to get a proper grip on.
It’s like laying puzzle pieces out, that are not on the same rotation. They won’t fit together. And, proper understanding of the differences cannot be comprehended, until they are on the same rotational datum.
You really should hire a “town father” grade of surveyor. One who wants all the info, and will properly assemble all the data, for you.
Nate
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Thank you Nate,
Yes, I??m beginning to understand this orientation of the plats. My findings last night are from a survey in 1998 where he uses deed north, so the rotation actually represent what??s on documents. It??s interesting, the intent of the deed was for N 1?ø E lines, when actually surveyed in 1998 using deed north the monuments revealed the are N 00?ø 10?? 16? West. By that logic, I would think that is the boundary line bearing. It actually works out with everyone??s respective distances and holds the monumemts
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It would be so nice to combine the parcels and get a new description and restore the one monument.
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Another problem is you will sometimes find a bearing to simply be a concept…. It’s not a mechanical reality. Like the 2″x4″ lumber fiasco. Lowes got sued for selling 2″x4″ lumber that was 1-1/2″ x 3-1/2″ nominal size. Well, that difference is a constant. So, I think it was a frivolous lawsuit, done by nut jobs, devoid of common sense. (1/2″) but, in surveying it is neither constant, nor quantifiable. Until a real surveyor thoroughly works it over. Then, after doing this he may be able to quantify it… But never release that part of his information… (Because it’s really not relevant). But, he will release a plat, based on some objective basis of Bearings. It might be an assumed datum, or a magnetic one, or State Plane Bearings. Or “true north”, which is ok, for a small area, but all “true north” bearings are fundamentally converging lines, of Longitude. Here is a link to a pic, showing those n-s lines: Geographic coordinate system https://g.co/kgs/85dq8s
It’s baffling to me why surveyors still generate surveys with random Willy nilly underlying bearings, without a reference to how to assemble them onto a common datum, but this is the reality. This subject would require a whole book, to properly supply the logic, method, and device. Or, since most surveyors are capable, we should just do it. But, I’d go so far as to suggest that you hire a surveyor, who is fluent in these realities, not just snow jobbing. Part of the reason for “snow jobbing” is it usually adds little to the immediate needs of the client, so don’t bother. I think this case would benefit from a full, proper documentation of this issue. I was doing sun shots in 1986, and dealing with it. Today’s modern gps is extremely capable of this. In fact, it is an integral part of the software, even when the user is blissfully ignorant.
Nate
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