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Retracement Survey consensus among professionals
thebionicman replied 2 years, 8 months ago 27 Members · 109 Replies
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…”if you are getting guys to sign up for this for hundreds, rather than thousands, of dollars it is no wonder that they fold up and run away when they see that they have run into a buzz saw.”
I think that sums up the situationmyself I would want a retainer of More than $5,000 to investigate the situation and make a Preliminary report. I expect the $$$ to go way beyond that to reach resolution.
The Lawyers have probably already bled you for more than that already.
***my advice, since saving $ seems to be of your highest importance: Have a nice afternoon on a park bench, decide where you Both want the lines to be.
That would be a “boundary line agreement” … drive some posts in the ground to mark the corners. Then get a Surveyor to make a Map (have him file/record it in the public records!) and write a “legal description”.
Provide that map and description to your Lawyer. Have him formalize it and get notarized signatures (include lenders) and get it recorded.
My best wishes… Peter -
I’m not licensed in your state, but here are some general answers to your questions posed in the OP.
“my question would be, what are the land principles about holding monuments that have been in place and observed for over 70 years?”
There may be many legal principles involved. Far too many to list all of them and how they may apply to your boundaries in this situation. It sounds like none of the previous surveyors have taken the time to properly explain the legal principles they have employed (if any).
“at what point can you change the parallel bearings for each lot?”
Surveyors can’t ”change” the parallel bearings. What should be happening is the retracement of the boundaries. Chances are, when the boundaries are properly found, the current/reported bearings and distances will not match the record bearings, distances, and angles, nor will the lines be exactly parallel - that’s just the way it is. The record bearings, distances, etc., usually do not control the location of the boundaries – they are guides to be used in finding the actual boundaries and corners. Far too many people (including surveyors) erroneously believe the bearings and distances in a deed, or on a plat, solely control where boundaries are located.
“is it proper to prorate distance and disregard parallel lots and original monuments?”
It depends.
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North Carolina has a lot of Acquiescence and Agreed Boundary Cases:
510. Carney v. Edwards
Supreme Court of North Carolina. December 13, 1961 256 N.C. 20
Headnote: That prior deed did not refer to survey did not prevent parties from showing what they did to locate land conveyed.
Document Summary: Action to remove cloud from title to tract. The Superior Court, Wake County, Heman R.
Clark, J., rendered judgment for plaintiff and defendants appealed. The Supreme Court, Rodman, J., held that
where deed used southwest corner of land of named person as part of description and lines of named person’s
land must be located before controversy as to ownership of specific area could be determined, court should
have undertaken to locate named person’s lands by applying parol testimony to description in deed conveying it.
New trial.
511. Wagner v. Bauman
Supreme Court of North Carolina. May 3, 1961 254 N.C. 594
Headnote: Admissions and parol agreement as to location of a boundary were competent evidence of place where boundary
was located, but neither such admissions nor parol agreement could, in fact, change boundaries of a deed and vest title to
land not conveyed.
Document Summary: Action in trespass to try title. The Superior Court, Watauga County, J. W. Pless, Jr., J.,
entered judgment for plaintiffs and defendants appealed. The Supreme Court, Rodman, J., held that instruction
that plaintiff was entitled to prevail if the jury found that there was an agreement in 1946 that the line was as
contended for by plaintiff was prejudicial error, as neither such agreement, nor any admission made in 1946
could, in fact, change boundaries of 1945 deed and vest title to land not conveyed by such deed. New trial.
512. Geddie v. Williams
Supreme Court of North Carolina. April 1, 1925 189 N.C. 333
Headnote: Adverse possession and use of lands in dispute are competent on question of location of dividing line.
2 Cases that cite this legal issue
Document Summary: Appeal from Superior Court, Cumberland County; Calvert, Judge. Action by Simon
Geddie against N. A. Williams. Judgment for plaintiff, and defendant appeals. New trial granted.
513. Becton v. Goodman
Supreme Court of North Carolina. February 23, 1921 181 N.C. 475
Headnote: In a proceeding to determine a boundary line, the court properly permitted a witness to be asked, over plaintiff’s
objection, the question, Up to the time that lots 5 and 6 got into the ownership of the same parties, how did the owners on both
sides work in reference to the line in controversy?
Document Summary: Appeal from Superior Court, Craven County; Connor, Judge. Proceedings to determine
boundary line by J. W. Becton against E. A. Goodman. From an adverse judgment, plaintiff appeals. No error.
514. Becton v. Goodman
Supreme Court of North Carolina. February 23, 1921 181 N.C. 475
Headnote: In a proceeding to determine a boundary line, the court did not err in permitting a witness to be asked and to
answer over plaintiff’s objection the question, with reference to a given matter, Where did the owners of a lot farm? the answer
being that there was a pine thicket where the line went through, etc. -
Hahaha, yes. I would totally do that. The only problem is how they went about it. See the neighbors on the back tract 2 with the boundary agreement made it known early on that they are interested in our property and would purchase for a bit more than market value. We declined of course because we purchased the lot with the same interest. The neighbors that are disputing the line have carefully and methodically used deception to make us believe that what we purchased isn??t ours over 1.5 years. It came to a point where we stopped entertaining or being friendly to their nonsense, which at that point they (we believe) have performed a small town land surveying SHAKE DOWN. Their cousin literally has suspended anyone from completing any honest work for us. I have yet to receive any completed work from a surveyor hired of a boundary retracement per our deeds and original monuments. It??s kind of comical except for the whole litigation side of this. I don??t like being a victim in any circumstance and at this juncture that is the position I am in. I did entertain the idea of letting her park, but you have to be honest, you can??t be a snake in the grass or weasel about it. If they would have come to me from the beginning saying hey, you know, the parking situation for us isn??t great and we would appreciate your help until she gets out of college… I would have been neighborly and obliged. College age girl lacks respect, it was wherever the car stopped, no thought put into her driving, just wherever the car stopped.
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Hi,
When the neighbors told us this, we said we had our deed and it mentioned no such conveyance. We checked again with our closing attorney and he did a second full title search which resulted in no conveyance of land. I have kept up with the previous owners at the holidays and they have never mentioned this ??gift?. There are no marks in the ground in the front yard in question, we searched with a metal detector and six surveyors searched for monuments. When we purchased, the neighbors landscaping was pristine. Ours was over ten years over grown because the owners got old, bed ridden, and passed way. The house sat empty for two and a half years. The area in dispute was a rats nest of weeds, bushes, wild grapevines, a mess. I immediately started cleaning it up and was never told, hey you are on my property, or hey, thanks for doing my yard work for me, because she was still parking there. When I stopped the parking it became a battle between an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. -
Hi, thanks for the reply. I appreciate the advice and insight.
We did buy the place based on what we saw and the maps available on record. We saw almost an acre of flat land in the beautiful smoky mountains of N.C. in a quiet, well established neighborhood. The perfect place to raise a family and have a small vegetable farm. This place is the best house and lot in the neighborhood. It sat empty and on the market for two years. No one saw the potential because it needed major updating. The asking price was fair if it was turn key ready. The renovations were an easy 80k if contracted out. We knew it was doable ourselves with sweat equity. And the Market has gone up 80k since we purchased, just the market value, it has not been reappraised yet with new kitchen and bathrooms we built ourselves. The lands were overgrown and unloved for many years because the previous owners from 1960-2016 got old a passed. The children moved away and didn??t love it the way their parents did. Previous owner was our local county extension officer and horticulturalist professor at the university, his wife was a high school history teacher and avid Rose gardener. I have regained control of the overgrown jungle to the point that neighbors are shocked that this property has been brought back to life, saying it looks like how the previous owners kept it. All of this is the sentimental side and legacy of the land.
Purchasing this property is the greatest thing we have ever accomplished together, and is our slice of the American dream.
This situation, as far as I can tell, is a matter of law verses a matter of surveying. The neighbors have gone to great lengths to stop us from defining our boundary with a retracement survey and the three original monuments. Their surveyor (number 2) got in a heated conversation with surveyor number 3 to where he did a boundary agreement proposal for us without saying it was a boundary agreement. It says so in the recorded map from surveyor number 2. Number 3 presented it to us as fact not as an agreement. Number 4 spray painted the original monument bright orange after saying he couldn??t do our survey because it ??would change everyone??s lots in the neighborhood? after talking to his fishing buddy surveyor number 2. Number 4 also gave us number 2??s map, the adjoiners I recorded map from 1998, number 3??s preliminary map, and the old plat for the back neighborhood that no one else has been able to find. He gave us all this ??evidence? as he put it, and said ??you guys are smart, you can figure it out?, and that ??it went all the way to the NC Supreme Court that a homeowner could survey their own property?. Crazy right? Does anyone else smell something fishy?
Number 5 did minimal field work and tried to convince us that number 2 was right. When showing him the evidence that it was described as our monument he backed out and wanted no payment. Surveyor number 1 was supplanted after setting an iron in the ground. Number 2 shows up within hours saying he is wrong and it needs to be three feet over before doing any field work himself.
How would you know a distance of error without conducting field work??
So surveyor number 1 says he made a mistake and that he will not correct it or complete any work.
What we have here is a strong case for professional malpractice and negligence on surveyor number 2, possibly due to his conflict of interest.
It??s so bizarre that we have to defend our land to this extent when no professional will show us what we purchased.
We have three surveyors telling us that the original monument is in fact what it is described as the corner between four parcels and we have three surveyors telling us it is not.
I have purchased deed plotting software and I??m not a licensed professional, but going off the extensive research and investigation into the property I have found the problem. The old plat distance to this original corner boundary is 7?? short of where it ??should? be. Surveyors have searched far and wide to find this monument of where it ??should? be to no avail. Because the monument is 7?? away from it. The marks all down the outside line are a little off here and there in relation to distance and bearings, but they exist, are there, and recorded at their actual location through the decades by our local surveyor, now county commissioner who did his duty and investigation and care to define and retrace to the subdivision. Sad part to all this is, he will not do our survey even though it is his work we are citing for all these boundaries. He mentioned my neighbor by name and said, he can show you where the line is….
What?! I??m asking a surveyor to define our boundaries and he tells me my neighbor, not a licensed surveyor can show me the boundary?!? In what world does that make any sense?
I am in need of an expert witness. One that is comfortable in the court room, because our neighbors have sued us! One that is a natural born detective, and licensed in N.C. I am in need of someone to retrace the boundary using the original monuments who can make a new description for my deed, tie in coordinates for the original marks. I would like to combine the two parcels and make it very clear and up to date the bounds of the property. I need a map for recording at the register of deeds and an extra copy for me to frame and put on the wall as a testament to how hard it has been to obtain.
This deed plot software I purchased shows the original monuments closing with my deed calls. It shows all the documents matching the property purchased correlating with the monuments on the ground. What is most interesting is, it shows what surveyor number 1 did on the ground before being run off.
Are there any surveyors licensed in N.C. willing to be the hero for us? Money has not been an issue in this situation. We are happy to pay top dollar for completed work. We are of Greek decent and aren??t going to pay for a service not completed, therefore we have yet to spend any money, and no one has even tried to get payment (shocking)
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@norman-oklahoma
Thanks for the response!
We have three original monuments that were placed when the property was established and conveyed in 1956. The fourth mark is a boundary agreement done in 1998, and the neighbors cousin did a boundary survey for our other neighbor in 2012. So we share one new mark at my NW corner. Funny or strange, or interesting thing is, when all this surveying schinanigans went down, Zillow lot line for my property changed from straight lines like everyone else to this overlapped and gapped mess. It??s telling me the work from 2012 has a gap and should be 3-4?? over. Maybe on the other side of these 500lb boulders at the boundary. You can see the overlap produced by
surveyor number 2 on the NE boundary. It??s a mess.
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@norman-oklahoma
We did show surveyor number 1 #2??s map. He spoke with our attorney about it for 45 minutes. He said he would not have done it that way, but didn??t go so far as to say ??it??s wrong?. Kind of like getting a second opinion with a doctor, he isn??t going to tell you the first guy is ??wrong?
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@norman-oklahoma
Yes, that??s among many reasons their adverse possession claim is bogus. They said in a blunder they had permission to cut down a tree, a tree that is where they are claiming is their land. So when we asked why did you need permission to cut down your own tree, they resorted to name calling.
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@peter-ehlert
Whew, that??s a big price tag! I totally understand why you put that price on it. It??s just tough. The lawyer we hired is pretty amazing. He estimated a price to litigate the whole thing and we paid that, way less than you would expect but still a big chunk of cash. What I like about him, he isnt rigid with his pay and scheduling. He isn??t docking us for 30 minutes here and there. He has spent more hours just learning about the case from us than the hours he estimated to litigate. He even came out to the property because he won??t take real property cases without seeing it for himself on the ground. He really is a dream come true and we are so thankful to have at least one person defending us. I??ve never been sued before, so this is very awkward. The neighbors aren??t interested in mediation or settlement thus far.
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@brian-allen
Thanks for the answers!
But what does it depend on?
The old plat lot 34 he found two stake in the frontage of the street. He measured and it came up 101.2 instead of 102.5. So he then does a math equation and stacks lot 32 and 30. Which put his stake 3.3?? away from the original monument in the back. He claims, I don??t know who put that stake in or where it came from and that it??s a separate neighborhood so it doesn??t apply. Only problem with that is, it is an adjoiner and when surveyed and a new description is written for that adjoiner it states it is the boundary between tract 1&2 and the corner of lot 28 and 30. He didn??t measure the whole street to see any discrepancies, just one lot then stacked his equation for two other lots. Does that sound like boundary retracement?
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@norman-oklahoma
Thanks for the response and looking over the deeds.
You are right about the 1998 boundary agreement being a bit off in numbers. The lots for the back lot were sold at 119 feet and most still are. I believe the mark would??ve been in or under the street. This agreement seems to have come about because a carport concrete driveway was poured over the boundary line and our predecessor made an agreement to move it over 1.5?ø or 2.8?? so that there is t an encroachment. In doing so, they set the mark about 8?? in off the street. The other discrepancy I??ve found as well is the difference of 148 and 143.68?? to the newly set mark. When I map out the 143.68?? it comes 1-2?? short of the next call which is one of 3 similar original monuments. Other than that, the bearing of 87, 88.5, and 89?ø going east west are different for each tract. They all ??should? be 87?ø but the marks are a bit off down the line. Thank goodness for the county commissioner to describe what they are verses redesigning the neighborhood. I can only hope I get that lucky.
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Nobody has to help you. Without some major change in attitude on your part, I predict you will wind up selling the place to pay the court costs and opposing attorneys’ fees. For ‘services completed’. Should have stayed in Ventura (inside joke).
It makes sense that a surveyor might tell you that a neighbor can show you the boundary because a surveyor knows that long standing occupation outweighs imaginary lines.
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Attitudes can change, just frustrated with the situation. These neighbors haven??t occupied long standing. They just recently occupied after the death of the previous owners. What I found bizarre, is surveyor #2 told us we were a junior lot, and they a senior lot and that??s why he gave them footage and took away footage from us.
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If you are looking for an expert in your area I would contact Kristopher M. Kline, PLS, he is a North Carolina surveyor about 25 miles from you who has given seminars and published books on property surveying.
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Thanks for the response. I did contact Kris Kline back in August and again before Christmas. He is extremely busy with his teaching and his calendar is full. He is also very expensive. He cost more than the attorney. I did talk to him for over an hour and he told me various laws in retracement that line up with everything we want and are in need of. He immediately gasped and groaned about the proration the neighbors cousin did. Saying that proration in a simultaneous conveyance is the absolute last resort in this situation and bottom of the barrel, meaning he has nothing else he could go off of. He also balked at the other surveyors saying you would need to come from the control points of the original plat and do it solely off measurement. He said the control points would be used in the event that the whole neighborhood was obliterated and you were trying to reestablish it from scratch. Currently though, all these surveyors want to do just that. It??s a mess.
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@brian-allen
It depends upon discovering the best available evidence to determine the line in question. That can get very expensive to compile, analyze and consider all of the evidence. In this area, people that shop on price seldom get a proper job done.
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A couple of comments. It sounds complicated. I know you are trying to make it simple, but its not. Just because their cousin did the survey doesn’t make it wrong.
The best advice I can give you. Either move or give the neighbor what they want. In the grand scheme of things, are you really losing anything? Is your house over the line? Are you losing anything really important? I hear the words “its the principal of it” all the time. Put a dollar amount on the principal of it. Is it worth 20k, 30k to win? If it is stick to your guns and ride this thing out.
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It sounds like Kris Kline is the surveyor you should have hired, instead of those 5 other mooks. Even if his calendar is full, you can ask the court to delay hearing the case until your expert finishes a survey.
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Maybe I’m wrong, but its starting to sound like you want a surveyor to justify and defend your opinion of where your boundaries are. That isn’t what we do.
A few years back I had a client try to dictate how I would perform the survey & what my results would be – I immediately quit working for her.
She insisted that she was entitled to every inch that was included in her “deed”, all other evidence to the contrary. It went to trial, she lost. She then appealed to the state supreme court and lost. She lost the house in a foreclosure.
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