Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Strictly Surveying › Pavement Creep, and PK nail moving
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Curb cuts are fairly visible monuments and I believe homeowners around here rely on them to mark the line much more than a steel pin and cap that is quickly covered over with grass. We know that the streets are moving but explaining that to the unwashed is a challenge and perhaps not even wholly correct. A landowner has a right to rely on a visible monument. It has bothered me for a long time.
So, what makes a monument “THE CORNER”?
What has more weight?
My whiz bang math and awesome measurements?
Ancient marks set at the time of subdivision and relied on ever since by the adjoining owners?
I know my answer.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong. -
The property owners have a legal right to rely upon monuments that appear to be undisturbed. That’s my understanding of current law and I will continue to rely upon that until it changes. The forces of natural have been moving objects since the beginning of time. Property owners should not have to enlist the services of a land surveyor to build a new fence because a global system of measurement says the monument no longer marks the corner.
That’s my position as well. The slow and steady movement of monuments over time, whether due to plate motion or gradual local movement, rarely defeats the monuments themselves.
I’m not a geologist, and unless I have clear and convincing evidence that a monument has been disturbed (absent any other evidence to the contrary) that monument is going to hold.
I’ll be reporting the record vs. measured observations on my survey in any case; if I cannot find any evidence of disturbance, the landowner is free to make any claim they want concerning earth movement.
I certainly wouldn’t be discussing soil reports or core samples if I became embroiled in a dispute over the issue. I’d be staying in my lane and explaining my reasoning and methodology for locating the boundary on the ground, no more.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman -
How about this situation. The street creeps by almost a foot over a couple decades. Pins have been set at the property corners, ostensibly, original monuments and are fairly stable. The pins are mowed over, and disappear from view into the soil. Curb cuts are right there on top of the ambulatory street and are being relied on to mark the extension of the property line. Homeowners see the curb cut and have always believed that to be the line.
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How about this situation. The street creeps by almost a foot over a couple decades. Pins have been set at the property corners, ostensibly, original monuments and are fairly stable. The pins are mowed over, and disappear from view into the soil. Curb cuts are right there on top of the ambulatory street and are being relied on to mark the extension of the property line. Homeowners see the curb cut and have always believed that to be the line.
From a survey standpoint, I don’t know why a licensee would be marking the extension line without finding and using those rear monuments.
If the landowners are relying upon called-for monumentation and occupying to them, I’d have to ask why my magic survey box – which will only detect that movement over many years – should overrule their acceptance of that bona fide monumentation and their agreed-upon and occupied boundaries.
I’d be genuinely curious to see an actual, real-world situation where it can be proven that an entire street has moved enough on its own over decades – without anything else in the area moving – to upset real property rights or deprive anyone of their land.
Anyone have any case law on such an occurrence? I’m not talking earthquakes or avulsive events, but where existent and relied-upon monumentation was overruled by natural, slow and steady movement of large sections of ground, and new monumentation was placed where the original monumentation “used to be”.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman -
In my part of the country, the concrete streets themselves actually float little by little as 12×12 sections. You can see the gaps between each section increase over the years. One case I alluded to in particular was a cul-de-sac at the bottom of a long hill with concrete streets. The street pushed the driveway which pushed the garage off the house, tearing apart the brick facade enough to put a hand through to the outside. Ultimately, the driveway had a large section taken out and replaced with asphalt which then buckled up because of the continuing pressure/movement from the street.
Common usage of centerline and curb cuts only came into being around here about 30 years ago and the problems are only now coming to light. Kentucky is not a flat or dry state. Asphalt is more stationary than concrete but it still slips some. imagine a single concrete pad poured on a slope with no footers. By itself, that pad is going to slowly inch its way down the hill. Now imagine a bunch of those pads poured on a slope with no footers and surrounded by houses. Still going to move downhill.
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Anyone have any case law on such an occurrence?
Maybe; if Johnny Cochran was on the case…
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will! -
I’m just going to leave this right here:
This article has been corrected in this online archive. Originally, due to a mistake by the Associated Press, the marker’s location was incorrectly reported as being 2.5 miles off the correct spot. According to Dave Doyle of the National Geodetic Survey, the monument marking the intersection of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah is about 1,807 feet east of where it should have been placed in 1875. Doyle says the monument’s location has been legally
adopted by all the states as the official corner.
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will! -
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How about this situation. The street creeps by almost a foot over a couple decades. Pins have been set at the property corners, ostensibly, original monuments and are fairly stable. The pins are mowed over, and disappear from view into the soil. Curb cuts are right there on top of the ambulatory street and are being relied on to mark the extension of the property line. Homeowners see the curb cut and have always believed that to be the line.
It might be a candidate for acquiescence if it went to court. I’d ask the homeowners separately if they’d prefer the original monuments or the curb cuts. If they both wanted the curb cuts, I’d guide them through the quit claim process then pull the original monuments after tying them down the new ones I’d set. I might even tie it state plane and slap some coordinates on the new corners.
If they couldn’t agree, I’d hold the originals, show the cuts and tell them they better call Saul after pointing to the small print on page 37 of my contract that details my obnoxiously high hourly fee for anything associated with legal actions, proceedings, clarifications, documents assembly, calls, responses to emails or texts, and correspondences of any shape or form
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