Old Surveys
The more I gain insight into the though processes of PLSS surveyors, the more I believe that the fundamental difference arrives from the vast quantities of government land that exists in the PLSS. Simply put, I don’t believe there is any piece of paper that would change the position of an antiquated blazed and monumented boundary line in the states that I work in, unless sovereign rights were in play.
I am in agreement that forcing PLSs to record surveys makes a PLSs job easier. Knock free warrants make Law Enforcement Officer’s job easier too.
Whenever this is brought up, there are numerous posters from recording states who accuse PLSs in non-recording states of performing fraudulent surveys by “hiding” corners. All I want is for you folks in recording states to entertain the thought that your support of mandatory recording has more to do with making your job easier and less to do with some holy mission of protecting the public. The casual way in which you dismiss the existence of a legitimate reasons for privacy are concerning but just a drop of water in the ocean of present day America.
so in this pretend story, some neighbor has pulled the identified pins from their correct spot and re set them somewhere close but more advantageous to their situation. If I send out an old copy of my map that shows a pin with such and such cap and the new owner goes and finds said pin and cap, and relies on it, don’t you think I’d be dragged into a court case when it all hits the fan? Wouldn’t I be grilled about my duty to “protect the public” interest , let alone my client in regards to their real property? Sure I might have legal cover at the end of the day, but at what cost in time, money and reputation?
When people are asking for copies of old maps, it’s not generally for another surveyor, it’s to facilitate a closing or some sort of construction. (fence or garage, for example) So there would be no other surveyor there to find the pretend issue, just laypeople using what my old map shows.
Also, my survey showing the location of the house or other improvements in relation to the boundary might be BETTER evidence down the road in any potential court case, as I could show the improvements as a monument to where I determined the boundary.
Again, my clients are almost ALWAYS interested in either construction or remodeling which in my limited area of service REQUIRES a current survey with an incredible amount of detail in regard to the current improvements. Since your clients have no need of that, it makes sense that our outlooks aren’t the same.
Andy
PS I’m not withholding anything for my protection.. I’m advising my potential client on their best course of action. If they don’t care for my advice, they can move right along, as the there are plenty of people waiting.
I don’t HAVE to be involved in the current sale or development of a property just because I surveyed it some years ago.
Yeah, there are some survey outfits that make a habit of showing all the improvements on their boundary surveys,
That??s the legal requirement (all improvements located thereon) of a boundary survey in FL. including subsurface and aerial encroachments. Our liability is 2-4 years subsequent discovery, which could be interpreted as forever.
@jph My client is selling his house I surveyed 14 years ago and can not locate the paper copy I provided at the time. You would rather he have it resurveyed as if I had never surveyed it before? I would rather just email him a pdf. Maybe I should, I would make more money per job and would no longer have this lengthy backlog I’ve had the past twenty years.
@bruce-small YEP! It’s much easier to do everything for 30 clients, than just one job for a thousand different clients. A modal not universally accepted here.
No, I’d probably give a copy to a former client. Well, if he weren’t one of the three who I can still remember the pain and angst and regret and resignation over having worked for.
I (mis-)understood this as being someone who owns a lot and knows that you did a survey for some prior owner and wants a copy of it.
I just requested $500 & signature acknowledging the old survey is old…& got this response (he has a point):
Do you really anticipate it costing $500.00 to get me an electronic copy of a survey you already did?
That’s entertainment you can’t buy right there….
Just say, yes – you’re charging him for the value of the product, not your time. Or tell him that you bill out at $500/hr, with a 1 hour minimum
I dont understand what PLSS vs. non PLSS has done with anyhting. I have about equal experience in both.
The support for mandatory recording isn’t about making our jobs easier, it is about creating an efficient and fair system of land ownership and transfers. A key part of this is keeping attornies and the judicial branch’s involvement to a minimum, and preventing land owners from having to spend $5,000-$90,000 for a boundary survey every time they transfer their land.
I dont think we are getting anywhere with this discussion. On the most basic level I can’t get to the point where I understand what keeping a boundary private means. By it’s very definition a boundary involves at least two people. This strikes me as the same as a contract that only one party knows about.
I also think there is a fundamental disagreement about what a boundary survey is. I think this becasue I have seen many surveys that only show set and found corners and measurements, but don’t contain any information about how these positions were determined. If we assume this is the kind of survey we are talking about, your argument that the monunemts and blazes are sufficient notice makes some sense.
These kinds of surveys take the private boundary idea further than the recording vs. not recording argument, and grant the surveyor as the sole owner of the boundary information. Even the client doesn’t have access to it once the surveyor is dead, or won’t cooperate after the survey has been paid for.
These surveyors have very little long term value. There is a lot less to gain from keeping a public record of raw numbers then there is from maintaining a robust record of boundary history.
Your point about the relationship between the boundary and the improvements is correct, but I hope your surveys also contain sufficient data to explain your determination and to provide checks on moving monuments that only moving the whole neighborhood could hide.
I really think you are stretching the potential for legal problems though. Providing the old survey is providing the only proof you have that the monunemt has moved. This is the only way to prove that you provided notice to the new owners of the correct position of your corner. It seems much more likely they would come after you without that notice, and if they did, your only rational responce would be to proffer up your survey that shows you originally set the monuments in the correct place.
Providing your survey before hand would be the best way to fight any charges that you doctored the original (recording it would be even better).
I certainly have had clients that need that kind of data, but the improvements go on a separate plat that would not be recorded, or provided to third parties. Here I agree, the clients should have the right to keep what goes on in the interior of their property private.
@flga-2-2
So if your clients only want to know where their exterior boundary is, you have to survey all the improvements? I find it ironic that people are arguing that recording requirements are government overreach, but not a word about these forced services.
@flga-2-2
I just looked through the Florida standards of practice for boundary surveys and don’t see anything like that. Where is this legal requirement coming from?
My career has been split between PLSS, Colonial and foreign survey systems. Recording laws (where enforced) have resulted in superior quality of work regardless of the system employed. Having a reliable record of survey evidence is designed to protect the public. I won’t apologize for the fact that having that record makes some aspects of surveying easier.
OTOH, Wrapping hired gun surveying in the flag doen’t make it right. That statement comes from experience.
So if your clients only want to know where their exterior boundary is, you have to survey all the improvements
No, that’s why it’s called a specific purpose survey as Andy J has previously described.
Florida standards of practice for boundary surveys
5J-17.052
Our Board of Land Surveyors interprets this rule to include interior improvements. Period.
You can look up all the changes made by the Board for the past 30 years on their site for further verification.
@flga-2-2
I read through that. The only requirement that I see is a note that states improvement are not shown. Am I missing something?
Recording your survey doesn’t necessarily mean giving away future work. If I am asked to do a survey and find a record of survey on the site by Brand A or B then I refer the client to them. Just did that last month on a commercial site. The client had no idea there was a previous survey and was most grateful, as was Brand A.
@aliquot In 44 years of surveying in Florida, I have prepared two Boundary Surveys ‘without improvements at the request of the client’. Both showed all of the improvements around perimeter. It would have been easier to show all of the improvements and the cost was the same.
@aliquot I am going to stop locating improvement in Florida. When I no longer get any work and get called before the Board, I’ll be sure to tell then Mr. Ali Quot said “I dinit have to.”
you commented earlier…
“I am not very interested in surveying buildings, but when do, there would be a separate survey with the improvements, for my client only that wouldn’t have boundary details. The boundary survey would not have improvements and would be available to the public.”
If I’m understanding that correctly, you’d possibly end up with two maps of the same property, one showing just the boundary details and another survey/map showing the improvements ONLY?
I’m confused by the whole concept. maybe you just work with large tracts of land that isn’t developed?
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