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New equipment purchase
Looking to purchase new robot this year. Have been using Topcon and Magnet FC5000 tablet. Never used Trimble. Did like Survey Pro back in the day. Considering whether or not to look at Trimble. With Topcon we would not have to invest in a DC. Trimble we would have to buy entire set up. Thoughts?
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30 Replies
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In the last decade I’ve used Topcon, Trimble, and Leica . IMO, Topcon is clearly outclassed by both Trimble and Leica. And the prices aren’t much, if at all, higher – particularly for the Leicas.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 4 weeks ago by Norman_Oklahoma.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 4 weeks ago by
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If you go between leica and Trimble give a bit more of the the type of work environment you work in. I like Trimble and the way I can improve work flows from field to office and back. But I am use to it and to really grasp its benefits that is how I approach it not just a robot but a complete system. Leica i would say is as good as it gets for robot. The interface is where that changes a bit. Now full disclosure i have not used the latest data collector software from leica. So some of that might have changed.
Some say that Trimble Access has poor cogo functions compared to TDS/Survey Pro or others. I would have agreed to that years ago when it was survey controller. But Trimble Access has so many options for computations its just all embedded in different areas. Withen other cogo function that once you know where to look its easy.
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Thanks for the input. Regarding work, mostly small boundary/topo and small stakeout projects. Probably haven’t done anything larger than 30 acres for a few years. Used to do larger boundary, closed traverses and never had any issues with the Topcon total stations, that’s why I’m reluctant to switch.
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I don’t think either trimble or leica will give you any issues. For what you are doing. Really i would get a demo of both and or loaner and see which software suites you the best. Do you use rtk gnss if so one data collector to run both robot or rtk . This is where I think trimble shines. One dc one job file on same job all data is on the same datum coordinate system and just working with all data types in one file. The active target is a nice feature for Trimble. So no locking to a stop sign or vest or tail light when in that active mode. On the flip side leica has a smaller reflective beam for doing reflective shots and such. The S5 is the basic work horse for Trimble side no frills and such. I do get the track lights which is nice. The other s series models can get fancy with the camera video streaming. So you can see what the instruments sees. But if i we’re doing that i would probably skip straight to the sx12 and have some scanning capabilities as well as robot. Scan what you need and topo what you need. Stake out what you need. Traverse as well butits a beast. The basic robot is lightweight enough and the soft pack for tracking through the woods is fine. Hardpack on s5 is not bad and just fine for everyday surveying. Do your own collimation and keep gun in adjustment and no traverse issues for closure. I assume leica is about the same. Once or twice a year cleaning and cal at dealership for either. So basically who you trust support wise locally and how close. Trimble is close to me know the sales guy the support for me locally at low end i don’t need much but when in a jam i know who to call to cut through the red tape. I have met the local leica guy as well here and don’t think i would have an issue with him either getting up and going. Very respected also a LS great guy so flip a a coin and see which software in field is better and easier learning curve for what you do. The Trimble is such a easy way to get up and going with lots of power to streamline. Once you get the understanding down of how a monkey could run it honestly. But it has all the advanced capabilities that are intuitive to really integrate office and field . Have not ran carlson in years but hear its great support and not a bad robot either they have. If you like carlson. I have ran the field genius and topcon before. As far as data collector software. Love with my bad eyes the way I don’t need glasses on to blow up the font but didn’t like the robot itself. Trimble is easy to learn easy to use grid state plane with robot as long as you want to work that way its simple. Assume coordinates its not bad either. Heck you don’t even have to have coordinates with Trimble access you have a few ways to skin that cat. Reference line or whatever. I would demo both if you do a lot of topo measure codes is awesome. Fast easy to set up. And organize
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I’ve found Trimble to be a better fit for medium or small sized firms that don’t mind the $500-$700 yearly software subscription fees and a few thousand more for Trimble Business Center. Trimble is like Apple, it is high quality but doesn’t play nice with other software or hardware. Leica’s power search is still better than Trimble’s and Leica’s reflectorless seems superior. Using the same field procedures, Trimble seems to measure better angles, but the difference is minimal and wouldn’t be of any concern for anything less than a 1:50,000 unadjusted closure.
I’d go with a Leica robot or the repackaged Carlson version.
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Do you have a dealer close by that can provide service quickly when needed? To me, that’s a huge factor. We have Seiler Instrument HQ here in St. Louis so just about everyone runs Trimble. This construction firm that I work for has been tied up with a company out of Seattle, for whatever reason, and uses Leica. It’s so dumb to have to ship your equipment half way across the US to get serviced. The VP of my department got canned so now we are free to change that and become a Trimble house. It can’t come fast enough!
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I would stay with Topcon. Am a Sokkia user myself and i purchased a new robot and manual ts last year. Looked at Trimble but wasn’t keen on learning new gear.
The topcon was out of the box and ready to go. All is clear on maintenance and subscriptions as well.
Don’t understand the topcon bashing over here all the time. I’ve been running Sokkia for more then 12 years without any problems. I do topo and very large stakeouts of complex buildings. Never had an issue.
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Once you try Trimble the decision will be simple. Trimble equipment DC’s are very bulky both physically and software. Some or most new Trimble Robotic TS are absolutely worthless without a data collector. With Trimble GNSS and DC’s you’ll also need a huge budget and lots of room to carry and charge batteries. The TS have no onboard screen to take a measurement or even level the gun, such as the SX10. Try a Topcon GT1200 after you try the SX12 or S8. Far more practical and way faster turning angles with Topcon and Sokkia.
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I agree that Topcon, Sokkia, Nikon, etc. will all work. Anecdotally, the only surveyors I know who champion those brands have never spent a year using a Trimble or Leica. Two things can be true simultaneously, Topcon is of lower quality than Trimble or Leica and Topcon is a decent brand that gets the job done.
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To the OP: I’d stick with Topcon if that is what you are comfortable with, you are happy with the performance, and you have a reliable service shop to take it to. It sounds like you’re not doing large or complicated sites.
<font color=”#fc781f”>Demo the other brands if you want to see how they work, but if you do, make sure you really dig into the settings and spend a full day or two with it, because there are a ton of features packed into them nowadays. A lot of folks just turn a few sets or store a few points then declare one model to be superior to the other.</font>
The Leica total stations still edge out the Trimble when it comes to reflectorless measurements, but they are both top-notch. I like the Trimble active-track prisms the most, but Leica passive tracking is pretty darn good. I have always found Trimble field software to be more intuitive and user-friendly, but current Leica field software is a lot better than ~5 years ago. Trimble office software (TBC) outclasses Leica office software (Infinity) by a long shot, in my opinion (and I really liked LGO).
Trimble also really shines when it comes to cloud-based project management/data transfer and integration with other data formats (from C3D, ORD, GIS, point clouds, grid/ground, etc.) but most folks do not make use of those features. If you don’t need that sort of capability (and if you don’t want to pay for it) then you may not want to go Trimble. There’s a reason it costs as much as it does…
“There’s no onboard screen on Trimble!” is incorrect. Why this keeps popping up I have no idea; you may indeed attach a CU to an S-series instrument, but it’s not part of the standard package because….it’s a robotic TS, which means the operator is usually…not at the instrument. The manual Trimble total stations, the C-series, do indeed come standard with Access onboard.
If you demo a Trimble, I recommend either an S7 with Vision (video feed) or the SX12 if you feel you might need scanning capabilities. I’ll never go back to a non-camera total station unless I am forced to.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman -
Thats not completely true. You can level the robot with instrument itself. You don’t need a data collection to fine level the S series robot. You can also get a dc that will mount to the instrument itself. Although that is not what modern purchase. That is a gripe i have with Trimble. Sometimes i just need to set up shoot a distance and turn an angle and i don’t need no job file or data collector at all. Ean into that the other day. I found an adjoining corner and back pin. All I wanted was to set up bs and turn an angle and distance to check but. Nope. Not an option without creating a project and dc job file.
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You don’t need to pay yearly to use Trimble software. If you choose, you can buy and never update it.
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You don’t need to pay yearly to use Trimble software. If you choose, you can buy and never update it.
I used Trimble for many years, from 5603 to S5, and never had TBC. I have used StarNet since 1996.
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I’d be happy to read some evidence about Topcon being lower quality…. I know for a fact that you pay premium at Trimble and Leica to support their whole marketing department to let people buy all stuff they don’t need to start with.
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Had a 5601. Old CU face plate. It was non robotic. Heavy but did what we needed. Used to triangulate obstructions and some geodetic traverses. Dumb box we needed everything recorded in a certain way to run through a program for computing 3d computations. No state plane or utm All wgs84 . Had some tight tolerances. Now they probably shoot reflector-less. Good. Piece of equipment. Prior to the service i used itd predecessor geodometer and spectra. The 606 and a couple others.
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“I’d be happy to read some evidence about Topcon being lower quality….”
I’m basing my statements on first hand experience. The Topcon simply doesn’t track as well as either the Trimble or the Leica. It’s routines for finding the glass once lost are more cumbersome and take longer to acquire. And the Topcon does not maintain its collimation settings for more than a day or two, resulting in much larger splits when doubling angles, and less precise measurements when not. Unless you want to collimate daily.
Other than than those specific things the Topcon is OK, but those things are very fundamental. The price differences, big picture, are not so great that any additional money you might spend on Trimble or Leica cannot be recouped, many times over, through increased efficiency over the operating life.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by Norman_Oklahoma.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by
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At any point in your career have you used a Trimble or a Leica robot routinely, let’s say for six months to a year?
Not that it matters much these days, particularly with a robot, but Leica glass is right up there with Swarovski. Look at the cost of Leica binoculars, rifle scopes, and spotting glasses. The optics market is incredibly competitive, you can’t get $3.3K for a set of 10×42 binoculars based on name recognition.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by murphy.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by
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you pay premium at Trimble and Leica to support their whole marketing department to let people buy all stuff they don’t need to start with.
Uh, I guess, if by “marketing” you mean “research and development” and by “stuff they don’t need” you mean “stuff that quite a few people use very effectively“…
If you buy a superbike and ride it like a bicycle, it’s going to seem like a bad deal.
If you buy a total station with lots of features, but insist on using Survey Basic and point staking, refuse to use the advanced coding and attribution features, forbid people from running GNSS and conventional in the same job, force your crews to turn off the IMU tilt functions (“I don’t trust it“), neglect cloud transfer/management, and never touch the post-processing software in favor of CSV point dumps…….and still try to charge the same price you would when using a basic budget model, it’s the same concept.
We’re a decently sized firm, and despite a lot more bureaucracy and overhead in addition to paying for the “overpriced” gear, we make good money with it, using only a handful of the “stuff we don’t need” features. As a community of practice lead and technical SME, I’m constantly pushing management to implement improved workflows, and even with what I perceive to be a slow rate of progress we do very well.
I’d get budget gear if I were starting out going solo, but as soon as I could afford it I’d go for the top-shelf solution. The clients would pay for that extra efficiency, and I’d make more money as a result.
I’m basing my statements on first hand experience. The Topcon simply doesn’t track as well as either the Trimble or the Leica. It’s routines for finding the glass once lost are more cumbersome and take longer to acquire. And the Topcon does not maintain its collimation settings for more than a day or two, resulting in much larger splits when doubling angles, and less precise measurements when not. Unless you want to collimate daily.
I’ve seen the same thing, albeit about ~8 years ago for the total station side. I’ve seen it on the GNSS side in the past 5-6 years. Worked with a government agency to set and observe targets for airborne LiDAR in some pretty gnarly terrain with lots of canopy. Open areas for targets were few and far between, had to chainsaw to get even halfway decent sky. Had late-model flagship Topcon receivers and they were choking when it came to processing time. Switched them out for flagship Trimble receivers, and tore through the job in no time, just due to the cleaner static data and better processing algorithms in the office. We eventually figured out that we probably could have cut the observation times by 20% and still gotten quality results.
Yeah, some of that high purchase price goes to R&D. I don’t know why that is considered a negative. Maybe in the past, when theodolites and top-mount EDMs were the norm, before the digital revolution and the cloud and the remote sensing explosion, that argument might have made sense.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman -
I have to agree with your first few statements. I’ve bashed Sokkia before because we got a brand new ix-503 and it had “ultrasonic” motor failure twice in 2 years. Tracking was terrible. I did some research and this was not an isolated issue. It got traded away to Trimble eventually. I did eventually start to like magnet field, especially on the Panasonic FZ-M1 that I used for another couple years after they with fieldgenius and the Leica TCRP1203+.
Now I have a tsc7 and Trimble has a lot more software glitches than magnet did, and batteries last just over half a day and the weight is a problem for a solo user trying to do layout. If you have only used Sokkia and Leica and then you get a Trimble and realize that it doesn’t have a proper search function without using integrated mode to get reliable GPS search) it can be a big surprise that you have to use an extremely laggy joystick to get the robot pointed perfectly at you to acquire a lock.
There doesn’t seem to be a great all in one solution, but if I had a magic wand I would have a Leica robot, run with a software that was a combination of magnet field and Trimble access, but without all the very odd behavior of access -( tab puts the cursor in the wrong spot, lag that affects the tab keys but not the numbers you start to type is infuriating, not warning you that the point name already exists if you’re storing in staking, Trimble engineers that think that behavior is okay, etc) but I really like integrated mode in Trimble with the r12i.
Oh and reflectorless is actually garbage on Trimble. Luckily I got the Leica 1203 to work with access so if I need reflectorless shots I use that. It shoots the corner, instead of the house next door.
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The Sokkia gun that Rock had problems with is not the norm. I have been using a Topxon GT1001 for several years with out a single failure. Now I work along side crews with Trimble and I can out perform them 2x in construction layout and asbuilt anchor bolts with double angles on ever shot. I see not problems with Topcon tracking. While the Trimble is slower and still tracks a reflective vets. Working construction where we may climb ten or twenty flights of stairs, I’d much rather have the Topcon GT1001 and FC6000, than any Trimble gear. Not only is there lighter, smaller and faster. The batteries on Trimble last half as long as Topcon controller and TS. Which equates to more weight with Trimble to work all day.
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