Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Strictly Surveying › New Clerks office will end old plats being available.
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New Clerks office will end old plats being available.
Posted by carl-b-correll on July 27, 2010 at 7:18 pmWell… That’s not exactlywhat I mean, but it is. Let me explain…
My home county is building a new Courthouse, which (I learned yesterday) will include a new Circuit Court Clerks Office (probably vault). This is where our deeds, plats, wills and etc. are recorded. Anyway, a local real estate lawyer friend (yes, they do exist), mused out loud that even HE would miss going to the plat cabinet and grabbing an old (late 50’s to last year sometime) plat to have with his closing file.
Apparently they have been working hard on scanning everything, and are going to put the old plats in deep storage somewhere. I guess, until I see how the individual plats look after being scanned, I should hold my tongue, but I’m worried that many plats will look like craap after being scanned. Some are barely readable now…
They have been scanning everything for the last year and a half, and nothing is available at original scale anymore. The large plats (17″ x 22″) are shrunk down to 8.5″ x 14″ for printing (if they even get that right, there are problems). I don’t think they have any plan for being able to print to 11″ x 17″.
Has anybody dealt with this before and gotten them to reconsider? Should I get my Surveyors Association (or other associations) involved?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Carl
ken-salzmann replied 14 years, 1 month ago 11 Members · 18 Replies -
18 Replies
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They have done that here, but will always get out the original if there is a problem. Our scans are as good as the originals for the most part.
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A similar situation is happening in this county
The local Clerk’s office went to digital records in 2005 and there are no “new or recent” hard copy records to review. Any view is only available on a terminal screen that is like viewing it at postcard scale or post card size portion at scale or zoom.
With 6 terminals on site, only half may work at any given time with data from online sources. That is right, the information is not on an in house database.
There hardware is way behind their technology and the computer programs that are supposed to be sophisticated can be bested by freeware. They have recently been blocked by budget cuts to obtain the upgraded system and badly needed training for the deputy clerks.
Too bad for those trying to get suitable free surveys for closing
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Carl,
VAS has been active but limited. As long as your plats meet the minimum archival standards for virginia then there should not be a problem. I say this with caution. Several years ago I did 65 right-of-way take plats on 18 x 24 and they were reduced to 8.5 x 14 and recorded in the deed books. Obviously they are a joke to try and read. The City Surveyor with the City of Virginia Beach asked called me once to ask for a legible copy.The archive standards take into account the scanning and reduction by requiring a minimum text height of 0.10 and also minimum line widths. I have downloaded copies of some recent plats recorded as instruments from the City of Virginia Beach and they plotted fine. When I visit the surveyors office I can request a 11 x 17 copy and all is legible.
The problem with the old plats are they were prepared with a Leroy set sometimes at 60. This of course causes problems when reduced and then plotted at the original scale.
I believe it was the Tidewater Chapter who made inquiries as to what would happen with the sepia mylars on file with the city. I don’t believe they have been thrown away yet but, with technology changing I believe they will soon. The City of Virginia Beach hired a sub consultant to scan the plats and record to CD. The CD’s were available for $500….the problem is the QAQC (or lack thereof) created many scanned images to be unreadable. The city provided plats for free to anyone who had purchased the CD’s.
This is the problem with scanning and trying to microfiche all documents. they have to be at a reproducible state.
Trial and error for some i guess.
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CArl,
Take a look at the barnstable county register of deeds here in MA. You have to download a reader, browntech, to use it but it’s free and the plans look pretty good…
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I appreciate all the posts. I guess what I am asking is should I try to get the VAS or Title people or the local bar association to write a letter requesting that the old plats remain available?? I wonder if it would help??
Carl
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VAS….I wouldn’t bother with an attorney, they can come in handy later. What is your chapter?
Public records have to be disposed of in a certain format.
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Good luck, they have been doing that around here in a couple of counties for 2 years. I think it will take some serious pull to get them to change there minds, maybe even a lawsuit. I even went so far to look at our state laws to see if there was something to force them to make them more readable of make the full size available, but I couldn’t find anything specific that would force them to do anything different.
I have tried alter the way I draw some of my plats, but how to you take a 40 lot subdivision and make it so it can be readable at 81/2×11.
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Scanned plans are commonplace at the Registries I work with hereabouts and the scans look very good — I’ve even bought .pdfs of a couple of my own old hand-drawn plans from them for updates. But yes, I think the old plans should be available for inspection when there’s some problem with the scans and any appropriate pressure you can bring to bear in this regard should be worthwhile. I guess I’m not clear what “deep storage” means — down in the basement? Or in a salt mine someplace?
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Western Chapter, I am the current Vice-President. But I would want any correspondence to be from the President or the whole chapter.
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Carl,
Ask the local chapter president to invite the clerk of the court to your next chapter meeting to discuss the issue. It may be that they have something in place that you’re not aware of. I have found when a public servant attends a chapter meeting it does two things. It demonstrates to the public servant (whether it be a Planning director or clerk of court etc.) the interests of the Surveying community. It also opens up future talks for other issues that may come up.It’s worth a try. The Tidewater chapter has had several City Surveyors in the area attend to speak about upcoming changes and how that affects surveyors.
The local President can also contact other current and past Presidents to see if they have been affected and how they addressed the changes.
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Somewhere not available day-to-day is what I gathered. But I don’t really know. The vault is already in the basement, it’s hard to go any farther down….
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We are in the process of scanning our filed surveys and recorded plats, it seems to be fine as long as the hardware and software do not change, if it does then it will be another big project to get it all in a new format. The full sized plats 18″ X 24″ are recorded and kept in hanging files in the Clerks office, True copies are filed in the County Survey Records and they are the source of the full size prints that go out of that office. The Filed Surveys are also available at full size. I have a blue print machine dedicated to making those full sized copy’s. I will fight tooth and nail to keep the full sized recorded and filed reproducible s available for use, even if we get it all on line. Now we are aiming at CD’s only, that in the future can be purchased, problem with them is they will not have the new stuff on them and an annual upgrade will be required along with checking the current index to give a heads up for data not on the CD you may have. Keep the full sized records you have. Being totally modern by fixing something that is not broke, often backfires. These documents are irreplaceable and need to be preserved in a hard format even when all records are digitized. I have survey comps on cards that I can not access because card readers and their software no longer exists. There are many paper or even stone records still available and useful from hundreds of years ago, we should keep that in mind when doing any change in recording data of all kinds.
jud -
Also, if you get a good turnout, the guest will realize that this is not just a problem for “one guy” standing at the desk some rainy morning, but for a group of concerned professionals. Strength in numbers…….
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Great job Jud,
Some great foresight and thought there.
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Craig and Angelo,
Thank you for your input, I will be contacting my Chapter President soon.
Carl
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Carl
You should be asking for the scanned files and printing them yourself at any scale. I just spent the morning downloading PDFs from Maricopa County.
David
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I think it is more about the training of the clerks to be able to produce a usable copy.
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We had an issues with scanned maps in Westchester Co., NY. The maps were originally scanned at a low resolution because disk space was expensive back when it was done. Factor in that they did not always scan the original, but sometimes a work or reduced copy that had been out in the files of the Clerk’s Office for all to look at, and there were a lot of illegible maps. They powers that be thought all was OK, since they could see the lines and read the map title; they now had digital records. Reading the numbers, to decide if it is an 8 or a 3, that was a problem for the surveyors.
A new County Clerk was elected. Our regional association met with the Clerk one evening. It may have been the best showing for a eeting we’ve ever had. The new Clerk saw the need for legible maps. The timing was right; funding was available for this sort of project. A new copy of the map index that is needed to find a filed map, a new web site and the committment to scan illegible maps followed the meeting.
The only caveat – government time is not like real time. It took almost 4 years to get this to happen, but it happened.
Talk to the clerk. Line up support from the title industry. Be patient.
KS
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