Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Strictly Surveying › Land survey gone horribly wrong
Our house was built in 1900 and no new surveys were done in our town since the 1800s. He told me the whole town was off.
For me, big red flag.
Maybe the town is where is always has been, where they first put it? Think about it!
Don’t know what state, but after ALL THAT TIME, even if the town is off, it shouldn’t matter at this point, principle of repose.
Sorry. I was not home today and used my phone to respond (via email) to a few of your posts due to the fact that I had email notification checked and didn’t know how this worked yet. When I got home and checked my email, I learned that when I replied via email, my messages go into the “black hole”. So let me try to fill you in a bit. We live in Maryland. I do believe it is as Bow Toe Surveyor stated, a “Improvement Location Certification” though it doesn’t actually say that on it. It says, “Location Drawing” and it was done just before closing by a surveyor. It has the property all marked out (shed, pool, house, and distance from the house to the front street (9 1/2′), distance from the bay window on the side to the house closest to us 7 1/2′(NorthEasterly side), width and length – SouthWesterly 180′, NorthEasterly 180′, S.E.erly 50′, N.E.erly 50′ and even has his surveyor seal on it. I guess it’s not a genuine survey as it says, “I hereby certify that I have located the improvements and they are listed as shown.” It does NOT say that it is a survey. My husband said, after the surveyor (the one we paid) put the markers in, the water line that goes to our house is now on the other side of the property marker (is that allowable by law???) and all visible line of sight objects now point to the markets being off. Our Location Drawing paper says 7 1/2′ from the bay window. The surveyor that we paid put the marker just inches from the bay window on the side of our house. The surveyor did not leave me a map. I wrote him a check and he said he would record it at the court house and left. Yes, the markers are 3 feet long. Sorry for the confusion there. When I spoke to the woman in the clerk’s office at the courthouse, she told me only a surveyor could figure out the plat of the area and even then, it’s gotta be a mess since nothing was done since the 1800s. She did tell me to use the paper that we got at closing and see if we could walk it out, but now I’m not sure if it’s even usable, since it appears to be just a location or improvement drawing. I was lucky enough to meet the son of the original owner of our house when we moved in, as he had moved into a house on the street behind us. Sadly, he passed away a few years ago, but he did tell me much about the property. He said the land (now consisting of 4 separate lots) originally belonged to one family (his grandfather) and consisted of an old farm house on one end, some land between, and a barn at the other end. Then, when his dad got married, his grandfather gave them a piece of their land that was right next to them so they could build a house and stay close to him. (We are literally talking…there is maybe 12 feet between our house and the one next door). He said that his dad’s land (our land) basically went right to the sidewalk of his grandparent’s house (the house next door which has the new renters) and this agrees with the “location drawing” map that I have in my possession. There is a line of huge trees near the property line on the other side of our land. The trees were put there so the horses could have shade and they also put fence posts and wire fence in the trees to contain the horses. This ran the full length of that tree line. This is the line that the surveyor used to establish a property line. That land (barn and horse area) was sold off and split into 2 separate properties. One (where a small house was built – another rental) is on the opposite side of us at the front of our house and the other (where the barn and horses were is along the back side and to the alley. That barn has now been turned into a house. That property had been a rental too and has sold twice since we lived here. It went into foreclosure last year and recently sold again. We have yet to meet the new neighbors (there are just crews in and out trying to fix the neglected house) and don’t know what to say about the property lines. ??? We had hired the surveyor because we had dogs and wanted to fence in the area without encroaching on anyone’s land. We wanted to make sure there would be no problems with property lines in the future. Boy do I feel like an idiot. We are the only ones who have done this and it has caused us more trouble than if we had done nothing. When the surveyor said the trees were on the property line, there was nothing we could do about the fence. I called a tree company and they quoted us $7,000 ($3000 less than most would ask) to remove the trees and even then, as I stated above, my husband says he is certain the markers are now in the wrong place and the trees are not ours. That is why the fence sat (leaning against the back shed). To the guy talking about termites. It took them 2 years to eat the fence. It was a used fence we got a great deal on from a military base that was replacing theirs. It just needed to be re-stained. Hope this helps explain the situation better. I will call the surveyors that we paid and talk to them on Monday and see if there is anything we can do. Thank you all for the helpful information.
Forgot to mention…I called the number of the title company on our deed earlier this week and the person who answered the phone told me that my title company had gone out of business and that they only kept copies of the actual deeds. They destroy all other paper work as they were going paperless. I believe the person I was speaking to was part of a new title company who had bought them out. Glad I found the location drawing (for what it’s worth) because she told me they don’t keep any papers from closing but the deed.
8 feet? That’s nothin’..
Wow! How crazy is that???
> There is a line of huge trees near the property line on the other side of our land. The trees were put there so the horses could have shade and they also put fence posts and wire fence in the trees to contain the horses. This ran the full length of that tree line. This is the line that the surveyor used to establish a property line. That land (barn and horse area) was sold off and split into 2 separate properties.
It sounds like the surveyor couldn’t find any better evidence than the fence in the time he spent looking, so assumed the fence had marked the property line. If the fence was there before the land was split, and the split didn’t refer to the fence, then maybe it wasn’t such good evidence. Any further details on that split would be useful, especially the wording of the deed that defined it.
People don’t usually build houses within inches of the property line if they know where that is. It is more common to build about the same distance from the line as other houses in the area from theirs. If your property was split from a larger tract and the house built shortly thereafter, that would also seem to be evidence worth considering.
.Possibly they got exactly what they paid for.
WillySeams the first surveyor who stamped his drawing may had did a good survey. I know myself, and all the surveyors on the site are not going to stamp anything without it not being true and correct. The one you paid $600 to didn’t even give you a drawing. Did he give you an Invoice?
Can you give us the state, county, city, and geodetic Latitude and Longitude of where your property is located.
Also a scan copy of your legal description would be nice.
That will give the Surveyors on this site something to ponder on.
Jules J.
I know this is a double posting, but for your sake it’s important!
Seams the first surveyor who stamped his drawing may had did a good survey. I know myself, and all the surveyors on the site are not going to stamp anything without it not being true and correct. The one you paid $600 to didn’t even give you a drawing. Did he give you an Invoice?
Can you give us the state, county, city, and geodetic Latitude and Longitude of where your property is located.
Also a scan copy of your legal description would be nice.
That will give the Surveyors on this site something to ponder on.
The more information we have to work with the better advice we can give.
Jules J.
If you purchased your property since the law was changed about fifteen years ago (I would have too look up the exact date) then the surveyor who prepared the Location Drawing at settlement was required by the state minimum standards of practice to obtained your signature on a release form stating that you were aware of the differences between a Location Drawing and a Boundary Survey, the limitations of the former, and a fee for the latter. The language that is required to be both on the release form and on the actual survey drawing for the benefit of the consumer is located here:
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/getfile.aspx?file=09.13.06.06.htm
If these procedures were not followed the surveyor is subject to discipline by the licensing board.
If you’re located in central Maryland (Washington, Frederick, Carroll, or Montgomery Counties) drop me an email through the icon next to my name above and I might be able to recommend a surveyor who could take a look at everything as an uninterested third party. As someone who has over 25 years experience surveying in Maryland there are a couple of items you’ve discussed about both surveys that send up “red flags” to me, specifically the second surveyor not giving you a drawing yet stating that it would be “recorded at the courthouse” which is not required or standard procedure for marking a property line in Maryland.
Here is what I would do, I would call the surveyor who did your original improvement certificate or whatever it is and have him stake the property.
Not providing the boundary survey map = not professional
I would agree with others here that the surveyor not giving you a copy of the boundary survey drawing that you paid for doesn’t sound professional. The boundary survey drawing is the document that reports the results of a boundary survey and is evidence that a boundary survey took place that is admissible in court if a suit were ever to arise. I would demand a copy of your survey (you paid for it after all) or have him tell you where it is recorded.
Not providing the boundary survey map = not professional
I believe there are certain States that do not require the production of a plat of survey. I’m sure they are Colonial States. This has come up for discussion at some time in the distant past (as far as surveyor websites go).
Just to clarify one of the terms being used:
An “improvement location certificate” is uniquely a Colorado document that by law does not established property corners and can not be relied upon for establishment of fence or other improvements. Many people get these for closing purposes and the intended legal use for these is for banks to know whether or not the house they are financing is or is not on the lot. The banks lobbied for this law and argued that they did not care where the exact property corners were, so the corners are not set or certified.
If you have one of these documents, or similar document in use in Maryland, it can not be used to help locate your true, legal property lines. It is likely that a true boundary retracement will be different. It will cost much more to do a proper boundary retracement certified by a surveyor. $600 is very low for the average boundary survey in Colorado, and likely too low for a true problematic retracement, and these are not uncommon.
One good thing that has happened in Colorado with ILC’s is the State Board has agreed that “side ties” can be omitted from the Board Rules, and we are on track to getting this law changed soon so that unfortunate landowners can not continue looking at the numbers such as the example on this thread – and be mislead by it.
Good luck! Surveys seem like they are expensive, but they are well worth the cost to have done by a professinal
ww CO PLS
> An “improvement location certificate” is uniquely a Colorado document that by law does not established property corners and can not be relied upon for establishment of fence or other improvements. Many people get these for closing purposes and the intended legal use for these is for banks to know whether or not the house they are financing is or is not on the lot. The banks lobbied for this law and argued that they did not care where the exact property corners were, so the corners are not set or certified.
I trust that the Colorado Licensing Board for Surveyors requires a registrant to put a note on such a “certificate” in large, bold letters to the effect that while the sketch appears to be a map of a survey, it really is just a fraudulent product intended to lull innocent borrowers into thinking that everything is A-OK with the property that they were about to invest a large amount of money in?
Kent – Of course! there is a disclaimer required by statutes that is placed on ILC’s which includes the statement “….not to be relied upon for the establishment of fence, building, or other future improvement lines”. This statement has been upheld by the courts.
The role our State Board has is in adopting and enforcing minimum standards for these as well as true surveys. Long ago, they adopted a set of minimum standards which included the requirement for each ILC to show “side ties” to essentially calculated property lines. The current board agreed to remove this one requirement. I instigated this about 12 years ago. After numerous debates, where there were actually surveyors opposed to this change, the agreement from the state board came about 3 years ago. Now we are in the painfully slow process of state legislation. Plus, we have had to fight bigger fires in legislation, which delayed our efforts on ILC’s.
As you might imagine, there are cases I am aware of where landowners abused these to their own detriment. There are numerous towns and county planning departments that require “ILC’S” for building permits because of these dastardly side ties.
They don’t care that surveyors protest this abuse –
Also, some surveyors have had their licenses revoked over substandard ILC’s, so there is SOME teeth in the state board rules.
Alas – we have little chance of eliminating these from the statutes. The surveying profession will have to fight the banking and title industry in the legislature, as well as a fair number of surveyors to get this law eliminated.
ww CO PLS
Could you just all stop doing them? Just because something can be done, doesnt mean it has to be.
So long as the title companies and lenders demand them, someone will be doing them…..and getting rich if no one else will do them.
One of the problems with the ILC is that many of them were done by unlicensed outfits for silly low prices. Nobody gets rich doing ILC’s.
To do one right within the minimum standards would quadruple the usual going price at minimum.
The only valid disclaimer in Texas is that for a preliminary product to show a proposal and/or working sketch and hand to a client and not any for a final drawing.
If this is in Florida, the surveying problem is probably because the County Surveyors were going the wrong direction since they were put into place by the first Territorial Laws in 1822. They were tasked with following the original footsteps from the federal surveyors that created the TRS grids. They did not, and instead created new grids in Walton and Dade Counties, and probably all counties. Where I live the difference is barely noticeable at the west end of the township, but has almost 400′ difference on section corner locations in the center of the township, and is much worse at the east end. In 1963, the Florida Legislature enacted the Marketable Record Title Act to help cover errors made by the County Surveyors, and then legislated away the Counties Surveyors
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