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I fixed some of my Trimble s5 robot complaints…
350RocketMike replied 4 months, 4 weeks ago 12 Members · 119 Replies
A Trimble employee just confirmed that I am right that it takes at least 7 or 8 seconds to shoot in semi active mode.
I only use passive mode for traversing measuring rounds and to the mt1000 to a property corner while measuring rounds. Except if staking something tight vertically i will switch to passive on that to get cut fill if i don’t have a lot of wiggle room. I like rover have ran the first s6 series back before Trimble access existed it was survey controller back then. However I recently last couple years ran a 2010 model s6 with tsc7 and tsc5. We currently run an older s5 and tsc7 along with a year old s5 and tsc7. No issues hardly at all. Except a few quirks once in a while but usually a reboot solves that. On most of the work we do i am running active mode and distance is set to tracking. Topo or stake out. Traverse it gets changed to regular mode for distance and if setting something tight. Howei have checked it several times and in tracking mode if i let it settle not much difference in the distance. You state you are running a lieca robot with the Trimble data collector is that the set up you see the issues with. Or are you seeing the issues with Trimble access and s5 robot. Using the mt1000. I would most definitely be reaching out to my dealer to solve the problem if its s5 and tsc7. We have dozens of crews multiple states not having any issues like what you describe. Some of the issues i have seen was i was in a jon boat sun low and it had issues locking or it would lock and not get a distance. Wide open. Had a green eye man look through and the mt1000 was just above water and it was switching between the actual prism and the reflection in water. Same has happened on glass buildings before just uniqueness of the sun angle etc. dc start getting very slow almost un responsive at times. Reboot solves that or improper cad files makes it sluggish. I usually clean up layers and such before it goes to field. Now we work mostly frow dxf or dwg and csv files . I have a separate csv file for control. Then stake out. So i sent a csv file for an easement we had to stake and also curb and gutter had a different one. Some pilings had a different one yet. All linked and unlinked as the crew needed to do whichever task. It stays in project folder. New job file daily. They will link to a job file from previous day or last time they were on site just to see what was done or not done. Re staking is a ring the cash register again. Contract depending. I know of a company that imports everything into a job. Heck they had one job file for a year just kept adding to it. Why i don’t know but didn’t seem to me like a good way to manage a project. Every time i had to import i had to deal with everything over and over again. When you are linked it only brings in what you use everything else is visible but not actually stored in that days job file. Same with topo as well. Do you have a sim card or able to connect to internet on a job. If so the dealer support should be able to log directly into your dc and watch it in real time. Remotely. Are yall set up for Trimble connect and maybe updates being sent to often. I would lose my mind if i were going through what you are for sure . I had a tsc3 that screen went bad. One side was useless and i did a topo it about drove me nuts. I set it on bosses desk and said the job is done but this thing needs fixing. He went out side and saw the issue two days later i had a new dc. Tsc3 was at end of life. Remember bosses always here excuses. Sometimes you just have to show them and such. But i would have the dealer on the phone and support checking this issue out.
Mike is quite correct in that it does take at least seven or eight seconds to switch the instrument from active to passive mode for a semi-active shot.
????
I’ve never had it take more than 2-3 seconds, even with previous-generation S6 instruments.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanNow I’m unclear on why you want to change from active to passive and back from shot to shot. I’ve done plenty of construction layout with the S5, much of it high precision applications, always with the active tracking, no problem.
On another track – The GRZ4 is a very good prism, as are all the pro series Leica prisms. Switching to one significantly improved the tracking performance of my Topcon Robot. Not enough to keep me happy, but noticeable. They do cost well over US$1000. So not as much of a price difference to the MT1000 as one might first think. Like you, I happened to have one on the shelf.
I have read from multiple sources that you should use semi active mode for best accuracy. Especially as the mt1000 gets older and LEDs may have been tweaked. I do use active mode sometimes for layout if it only has to be within a centimeter, but I prefer to use semi active if I’m worried about it being better.
Trimble has mislead greatly on this concept of semi active being more accurate. All of the angles (horizontal and zenith) are based on the pointing in active mode. In other words, the diodes control the angles. When it switches from active to passive, it will point at the center of the strongest signal return but the only thing that is happening during this time is the instrument is averaging a few hundred distances. In active mode you get the same angles and only 1 instantaneous distance. Trimble refers to these averaged distances as more precise. It is of marketing value for them, but there is very little added value for the surveyor using semi active mode. I also have read many sources claiming the virtue of semi active mode, however Trimble’s failure to read the angles when the instrument points at the strongest signal has resulted in the loss of a great opportunity for more precision. Active or semi active with the mt1000 you are still dependent on the accuracy of the diodes.
@lurker That is not my understanding.
In Active mode the instrument seeks the strongest signal from the diodes
In Passive mode it seeks the strongest return from the prism glassware – the diodes are ignored.
You can test this for yourself – cover a couple of the diodes on one row and watch the instrument change pointing (a little) as you switch from Active to Passive and back
I would have to agree, because if the batteries die in the prism (always without warning since they don’t have a battery warning LOL) switching to passive will get you going again until you swap the battery in the prism. Therefore the LED’s are not being used at all in passive mode.
That said, in my usage I have not noticed a significant different between active and semi active for accuracy, the biggest thing is actually hitting “measure” instead of just storing in tracking. That can change the results by up to 0.005m when usually my tolerance is 0.010m.
This is an odd set of threads. I don’t have an S5, but I have had a 5600 and do have an S6. I was glad to switch out to the S6 not because that the older robot didn’t work but it had too much steampunk like old tech to deal with, the S6 is way more integrated. It’s super fast, highly accurate, very durable, I don’t see a reason to upgrade with the exception of it needing to be better in brush.
7-8 seconds to take a shot?
I’ve had the robot for over a decade, never had any issues like that.
Something’s wrong in a big way, I’ve chatted with other users and they don’t have this problem, heck I watched them run a concrete machine with a Trimble robot controlling the curb machine in continuous mode as the curb is being built (that can’t be done unless the robot and controller are almost instantaneously tracking).
I think the problem is with this particular machine, hardware and/or software mixing, or operator error.
I believe it’s possible (because of how many people here have the older s6) that they do shoot much faster. However, Jim Cox (a Trimble employee) confirmed that I am right that it takes at least 7 seconds for a semi active shot. That and the fact that this problem affects 2 newer s5’s, and an s7 run by 2 different tsc7’s and a tsc5, tells me that this is the normal operation. We are needing another robot, maybe I should convince the boss to get a used s6 instead?
When I “mix hardware and software” meaning using the Leica 1203+ with Trimble access, my shots only take about 1-2 seconds. It is slightly faster using fieldgenius but barely noticeable. The only issues I have running access with the Leica robot is that the joystick is not very responsive (it isn’t great when using the s series but certainly much better) and powersearch doesn’t work, it uses GPS search instead, which works okay under certain conditions only.
I would like it to shoot as fast with the s5 since the 14 year old Leica will likely not last forever and the boss “wants everyone on the same equipment”. But it doesn’t seem that this is possible.
A battery will keep those diodes blinking for a week, so the question of what to do when the battery dies is kind of moot.
That’s not been my experience. They can sometimes die after less than 2 heavy work days. And since there is no way to check the battery level, and the green indicator isn’t visible in bright sunlight I would say it’s not moot.
I agree that 7-8 seconds to get a shot is ridiculous. It would render the function unusable. And the product unmarketable. Since the product markets very well, I have to presume that there is a fix to this problem.
I’d encourage you to test that for yourself, not just accept what you may be reading. Orienting the diodes to have one face the instrument as well as possible might be a comfort. But I never really found that to be an issue worth worrying about.
Yes I always point it the same direction to keep the same LEDs facing the robot. And sorry what were you referring to me testing myself vs what people say on the internet? Right now it seems the only person confirming my experience with the 7-10 seconds to shoot is the Trimble employee. I’ve been testing 2 s5’s and one s7 and no way can I get a semi active shot in less than 7 seconds. Not sure how anyone else can do it, I’m pretty tech savvy and had close to 2 years of trying to find a solution and I do not believe there is one.
“And sorry what were you referring to me testing myself vs what people say on the internet?”
The virtue of using this semi-active business to a non-active target rather than just sticking with the MT1000 for all your work. Test that.
As far as all your shop’s instrument behaving like this, I do believe you. But people outside of your shop are not experiencing this. Trimble would not sell many instruments if they did. Trimble sells a lot of product. Therefore, something must be funky in your shop.
I’m not taking the word of any Trimble flunky as gospel until I’ve tested it for myself.
BTW, I’ve been super impressed with your ability to jury-rig things that just shouldn’t be jury-riggable. Nevertheless, Trimble S5s with Access are giving satisfactory service all over the world. They wouldn’t have such a huge market share if everybody was experiencing what you are. So I’m thinking with the mindset that something must be funky.
I speak as a person that used Trimble for 20+years up until 3 years ago, when I switched to Leica (with some hard time served with Topcon mixed in). The switch from Trimble to Leica was more based on economics that any disappointment with Trimble performance. There are some things I like better about the Leica, some things I like better about the Trimble.
Jim, yes you are correct. But when in semi active mode the angles are collected from the pointing of the diodes and not the pointing at the prism. In passive mode the angles come from the prism. In active and semi active mode they come from the diodes. I had always thought in semi active mode all of the data both distance and angles came from the prism pointing. I just recently discovered this is not the case. Numerous Trimble representatives insisted this was how it worked and after experimenting with the various modes, I discovered they were correct. If your tracker collimation is out, you will see the same angles reported when using active mode and semi active mode. If your optical collimation is out it will only be reflected in passive mode.
I’m in semi active mode and getting bad vertical results. I do the adjust routine which includes the optical collimation. I don’t do the tracker collimation. I can shoot vertically correct to sights I turn to but when using semi active mode I still am off on the zenith angles. Finally after more than 1 trip to the dealer, and the dealer saying the collimation is good. I discover the tracker collimation is bad. I argue the tracker collimation has no effect in semi active mode. They tell me I am wrong. They tell me in semi active mode all of the angles come from the tracker pointing to the diodes. I still do not believe them and I then collect a number of shots with forced bad collimations and good collimations. They were correct. All angles are from the tracker in semi active mode. I’ve proven it to myself and you can do the same. Shoot in semi active mode with screwed up optical collimations and good tracker collimations and you will see the angles come from the tracker pointing. Or vice versa, good optical collimations and bad tracker collimations will also show the angles come from the tracker pointing in semi active mode.
Just a little more on why this is important.
Trimble mt1000 prism does not have a good history for the durability of the diodes. Many people who use this prism think they are mitigating damaged diodes by using the semi active mode while using this prism. Unfortunately, the only benefit they are getting from semi active is the averaging of the distance verses the instantaneous resolution of the distance.
When shooting to the mt1000 in semi active mode you can see the gun change its pointing slightly to the center of the prism then returning to the tracker pointing. It is unfortunate the gun was not programmed to record these angles when it makes that pointing to the center of the prism. There are some thinking they are getting more precise data (angles and distance) by using the semi active mode, when in reality the only more precise data is the distance.
The way I understand it is that while in tracking active and semi-active are the same, following the diodes and shooting a distance. While in semi-active and standard it follows the diodes and when you take a measurement it switches to passive temporarily and measures angles and distances to the glass. It works great for me and I have not had any issues.
First, and most critically: the tracker is NOT just for the diodes – it is for both passive and active tracking.
Next….from the Trimble Geospatial Help website:
“When the tracking mode is set to semi‑active, the Target ID is used to track the prism, and then automatically switches to passive tracking mode when taking a standard measurement. This results in more precise vertical angle measurements.”
Continuing to use the diodes for angular values when measuring would defeat the entire purpose of the MT1000 in semi-active mode, and would not improve vertical results. I don’t know how these rumors get started, but they spread in less time than it takes to simply look at the S7 and MT1000 user guide and the Trimble website.
I’ll be at Dimensions next week and will ask the folks who actually design and build these things.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman
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