Fence remnantPosted by R Leonard on February 8, 2022 at 3:17 pm
neighbor just filed a survey showing four (4) ex??s:
x x x x
Entitled ??fence remnants.? They appear equidistant over a span of say 10 feet. And they appear as a group alone on a 100 foot boundary. No lines connect the ex??s.
The question is: is the surveyor obligated to provide any detail on this if asked? Unlike say a specific call out, example: ??buried 1-inch iron pipe,? instead we have vague ??remnant.? Could be old concrete post, or shred of rusty wire in the dirt, or anything really.
Is it reasonable to expect some detail, or am I out of luck?
- 52 Replies
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 3:37 pm
You were probably lucky to get that much detail.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 3:42 pmPosted by: @r-leonard
Could be old concrete post, or shred of rusty wire in the dirt, or anything really.
Does any of that really matter?
It seems to me; he found evidence of an ancient occupation, and showed it on his map. The significance of this, is left up to someone else.
Surveyors are there to find the facts; nothing more, nothing less.I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 3:42 pm
As a rule, a survey is implicitly a part of the property description by reference. The law in many jurisdictions and most prudent judges and surveyors will recognize the plat as an integral part of the property description and explanation of survey efforts and analysis.
Therefore, I would assume the previous surveyor saw significance in the four fence remnants, and so should I, even if it is only to say “not found” or its relation to a boundary, &c., e.g., “old fence of convenience”.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 3:56 pm
I’m assuming the survey is signed. Call the surveyor and ask for information on the type of fence remnants he found. Out of curiosity, why is it important to you? What would change depending on the type of remnant the surveyor found?
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 3:57 pm
To answer one question, a does matter in a huge way. I??m very familiar with the x x x x area and there was nothing above ground. The neighbor has planted rebar and may have gone the extra, clever mile to also include some remnants. That??s why I want to know what was found. This of course is an adverse possession issue brewing.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:03 pm
One of the drafting line types for fences is an X and a segmented line such as ” -x- “. Surveyors in my area will use a phrase like “fence remnants” if the evidence of the fence (barbed wire) is no longer supported by fence posts for long stretches and covered by leaves, limbs, or other debris. This practice, in general, is to show historic lines of occupation especially if the fence line is called for in the deed. The degree of detail in the surveyor’s descriptive text reflects how much weight he/she puts on this type of evidence as it pertains to the type of survey being performed. If the deed specifies, “thence along a 4-strand barbed wire fence…” and the surveyor finds remnants of a barbed wire fence, he/she may label the line to reflect the type of fencing found but such description is not a requirement in my state.
I hope this helps you understand a little better.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:14 pm
If you think it has the potential to be an adverse possession issue, you should consult a surveyor for your own protection.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:26 pm
Notation was just exs, no hyphens or lines to suggest any continuity. Shows as four individual ??things.?
Before getting too legal on the issue, I just want to obtain as much info as possible. I??ve mowed this area- no posts, no wires.
I know who the surveyor is. I also know, generally, surveyors aim to present the facts. But like it or not, there will be some bias in favor of the client. If the client wants to portray the existence of an old fence, the surveyor will probably provide a map that accommodates. If there??s weak remnant evidence, the surveyor will probably not to elaborate on the weakness. Or share that with me.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:27 pm
Not sure about Wisconsin, but in many areas this would be a case of potential acquiescence to a boundary if usage up to that line for a prescribed length of time supported the case, not an adverse possession which applies to title for an entire parcel..
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:41 pm
@r-leonard Such a cynical view of the surveyor should be supported by evidence. If you have that evidence it should go to the board. Without the evidence, the surveyors plat is to be believed. The remnants were found and not created because of some intrinsic bias towards the client.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:47 pm
I??m not saying remnants are not there, I??m just saying I??m interested in more detail because it??s a mysterious description. And I??m saying surveyors are fact-based but are most inclined to serve their client, and not a questioning neighbor like me. That??s all, not cynical.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:53 pm
@r-leonardPosted by: @r-leonard
And I??m saying surveyors are fact-based but are most inclined to serve their client, and not a questioning neighbor
That’s just wild conjecture, and some of my clients would tell you so
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 4:59 pm
I do not think he is “obligated” to provide any detail on this if asked. But, that is certainly not to say that he would not if you called and asked him. If a adjoining land owner has questions about a plat that I perpared of his neighbor’s property then I would hope that the land owner would contact me and allow me the opportunity to explain what my survey discovered. It is better to clear any issues or misunderstanding up now instead of later.
You state that the neighbor has “planted” rebar. What does the plat show. Does the surveyor state “rebar set?” If indeed, the neighbor has placed rebar along the survey line after the surveyor has gone then I would think the surveyor would appreciate knowing this.
Surveyors in general do not like to be misunderstood. Contact the surveyor and give him a chance to address the issue.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 5:14 pm
Are you contending that the four x’s denoting some kind of fence remnant on your neighbor’s survey are actually on your property and might be used as some kind of evidence in a boundary dispute? You are well within your rights to hire your own surveyor to mark the line in question and construct a fence. The cost of a good fence would be pennies compared to the cost of an AP action in court.Willy
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 5:24 pm
I like what he did there, found some old fence remnants, marked them with x’s to show it’s no longer a connecting fence line.
You can’t put a picture or a description in super detail for each and every item that’s located. I don’t describe on a water valve notation the stencil on the top, how many ridges there are on the outside of the valve, how much rust I found, I simply use WV with a note on the legend that it’s a water valve.
Any prudent person will infer that the x’s mean some minimal remaining fence evidence. And since he used unattached x’s it’s a nice graphic for a broken down fence line.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 5:38 pm
Ive reached out to the surveyor and have not received an answer (yet).
There happens to be a deputy report where the neighbor admits to planting rebar before the survey is executed. Rebar are over 50ft onto my property per recorded and verified surveys lines, including the current survey. However, the current survey shows the remnants similarly intruding onto my property by 50ft. Thus my interest in the remnants. I don??t care about the rebar since the neighbor admits putting them there, but the remnants are a different story.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 6:44 pm
Call the surveyor that prepared the map and ask them.
(EDIT) Sorry – didn’t see your post that you had already done this.
- MemberFebruary 8, 2022 at 6:57 pm
There is way to much speculation and way to vague a presentation for me to answer that question. Off the top of my head I would say no.
What do you see there in the field?
I can tell you I’ve reset Section corners and other property corners from fence remnants and noted similar evidence in my recorded drawing, I didn’t go into great detail of what type of barb wire, or posts I found.
You want a specific answer to a vague question, I doubt you will find that here.
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