Ethics Question – Hiring RPLS to Sign Reports
Hello all,
I’m hoping to receive some input from all of you experienced surveyors out there. My background is in geophysics/geology, but have worked as an independent contractor for licensed land surveyors providing ground control points for lidar/photogrammetry.
I am branching out and starting my own consulting operation in Colorado. I want to offer survey-grade geophysical mapping and drone services including GCPs, etc. (<2cm). I am not licensed and have no easy path that I’m aware of to become licensed, however I intend to hire a RPLS in time.
I have worked quite extensively on large-scale Federal projects with strict survey-grade deliverables (sub-centimeter) and am quite capable of performing the simple survey-related services mentioned above. I am considering the option of hiring a RPLS as needed to review my work and sign any necessary reports.
I’m using the Trimble ecosystem – TBC, Access, UASmaster, RTK Networks
Is this a bad idea? Or something that RPLS would even consider?
If this isn’t such a bad idea, what would an acceptable payment rate be for such an arrangement?
Thank you for reading my post and I look forward to reading your responses!
- 30 Replies
In Idaho you could be charged with unlicensed practice, and the surveyor with aiding and abetting. You could contract with a surveyor to do the control work with no issue.
Keep in mind that’s Idaho ymmv…
hahaha, well, if you need a guy who won’t ask many questions (strangely, as he’s way active in raising hell with various state boards) and who’ll stamp just about any piece of paper you put in front of him, lemme know. i know of a guy in the denver area who fits the bill.
Even a 10′ pole won’t help
I’m licensed in CO and the company I work for has an office in Denver. You can just sub the work to me? Or just have a local surveyor near your projects do it. Only real option is to hire a PLS full time of just sub it out.
I’m pretty sure that CO specifically includes geodetic surveying and engineering control in the definition of the practice of land surveying, which likely includes GCPs for aerial mapping and any other control work. If you aren’t starting out with a licensed surveyor, you’re likely opening yourself to problems with the board.
I have worked quite extensively on large-scale Federal projects with strict survey-grade deliverables (sub-centimeter) and am quite capable of performing the simple survey-related services mentioned above. I am considering the option of hiring a RPLS as needed to review my work and sign any necessary reports.
I wouldn’t say that sub-centimeter deliverables are “simple survey-related services”. Especially if they are derived from remote sensing methods, or mixed observation methods of variable quality. Which is why a license is required to oversee that type of work.
And regarding oversight, your wording indicates that you are going to be in charge of projects, and effectively using the PLS as a subcontractor, just for review purposes. That’s likely going to be a problem, as many (possibly including the board) would interpret this as a “rubber-stamp” position.
If I were to join a consulting venture as the one you are describing, there would be stringent requirements about control of projects and “veto” power over particular things. You will have to let the one whose license is on the line make final decisions about particular aspects of the project.
It can be done, but it’s going to take full cooperation between you and the license, as well as probably a full-time position for the license. I don’t think you’re going to attract top talent otherwise.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman
I’m curious. What exactly is geophysical mapping services? And what does “have worked as an independent contractor for licensed land surveyors providing ground control points for lidar/photogrammetry” mean?
My initial suspicion is you provide the contract field crews to set ground control for your services under the supervision of an LS who certifies the control for photogrammetric/lidar mapping projects. No big deal; I’ve hired contract field crews when overloaded with work and been on the other side of the road where my crew gets hired by a competitor for a few days if they’re in a crunch. But there’s a clear line here; an LS has to be in charge if your nascent firm is offering locating physical features for most purposes. Contracting an LS to fill that role is an acceptable avenue but competent LSs are kinda finicky and will want supervisory control of your crew(s) & mapping and charge accordingly. Or you can shop and contract an LS who will show up twice a month to stamp & sign your work without review for a few hundred bucks per map. They’re out there.
Congrats on sub 2cm accuracy which I believe any competent user of GPS equipment can achieve in optimal conditions (not vertically) locally but it’s when it hits the fan, bad control problems, new localization every day, etc., that number can go horribly wrong, off by feet. An LS can keep you out of trouble if he/she’s monitoring things but carry on, contract an LS to sign off cheap on your work and you could go for years before the OMG mistake bankrupts you.
“…and am quite capable of performing the simple survey-related services mentioned above.”
What could possibly go wrong?
Find an LS who wishes to make more money by using you as his sub for such projects. The risk falls squarely on his shoulders in such a relationship. But, he determines the fee structure and who gets paid for doing what.
Doing anything without an LS in total control will get you in big trouble with the State Board in every State I can think of.
It’s apparently an open market for “license leasing”. Every since word got out I had slowed down and sold out I’ve been approached regularly with offers that vary from ‘almost legit’ to ‘shadily lucrative’ to ‘downright criminal’.
I remember one ‘firm’ that boasted about the size of their organization and all the work they performed across the country. None of their correspondence mentioned a physical address. I wasn’t surprised when I couldn’t even find a website with their name.
But there are surveyors out there that will bite. It shouldn’t be too hard to find a “simple surveyor” to stamp “simple survey-related services”.
Just my simple opinion you understand.
A local lady passed away three days ago. Today would have been her 100th birthday. Her youngest child was a classmate of mine back when we rode dinosaurs to school. Between her obituary information and a little online searching I discovered my former classmate is now in Stillwater because her husband’s architectural firm had decided to expand from their longtime home office in Wyoming. How about that? Oklahoma is a dream spot for retirement age architects from Wyoming.
If you are just looking for a PLS to rubber stamp your work that is not likely to end well. Both of you will end up in the soup.
You could hire a PLS as an employee and engage in the surveying business without being licensed yourself (in many states). That PLS would not necessarily have to be engaged “full-time”. You would just have to be able to show that the PLS was the one making the actual surveying decisions. And when you are cutting the checks, that can be a high bar to clear. I recently left a job with an engineering company, owned by a PE, where I was the PLS in charge of the surveying end. That is a common situation.
What does “background in geophysics” mean? If you have an advanced degree in geophysics you are just as capable as most surveyors are at figuring out measuring with GPS/remote methods. There are places that strictly limit the requirment for licensure to boundaries, but unfortunately I don’t think Colorado is one of them.
Grouping boundaries and measuring/maping together under the same licence is archaic, but it won’t be changing anytime soon.
I think the rub occurs when the data is mapped, relied upon, and has real impacts and land right implications. For Geology and or Geophysics implications, such as here lies the gold, or here is karst rock you don’t want to build on, or this ground is moving – well that is why the surveyor needs to be involved. I don’t know sh!t about rocks but I can surely tell you where they are. So yes, boundaries and measuring are sometimes the same thing when they affect real property rights.
Ethically, you should get licensed. In all the states I’ve worked in, you would be surveying without a license. I would only recommend hiring a rubber stamp if you aggressively pursue licensure.
Take advantage of University of Maine’s entirely online land surveying degree. If you already have a B.S. you may find that you will only need a handful of classes.
Your statement, “simple survey-related services”, leads me to assume that you should not be providing any survey services. Be open to the idea that you may be blissfully ignorant of the gaps in your knowledge (particularly propagation of uncertainty). Conversely, you may know much more than all of us and we’ve just been over-complicating something that should be as simple as parking a GNSS receiver on a GCP and printing out a TBC accuracy report.
I also have a background in Geophysics/land surveying/GIS, and I am in school to complete the ABET Degree I need to get “permission” to sit for and conquer the FS/PS exams and quantify my work history and experience to apply for licensure.
Very similar work histories save the UAS stuff. I don’t fly for work, just play. Have traveled Internally for Multi-milliondollar contracted work for foreign governments, and was even offered an opportunity to buy out a licensed surveyors business, to work and gain my time under his license.But with all that, I never considered working with the idea I could provide legally authoritative and relied upon survey promoted documents or data without having a license( save the scenario of owning and umbrella with above) and understand why and how that would be a liability that a lawyer from Dewey Cheatem and Howe would have a field day with in the courtroom if anything went unfavorably fora client. If you can get an LS to sign off, good deal, just remember Surveying is more than just math, and UAS, and imagery. Legal principles that have been concatonated from several hundreds of years previous are used now in what seems to be a simple wave of a pen, but takes years to fully understand, comprehend, and utilize with competence, and in the best interest of the public well being.
(mic drop…)
The responsible experience under a licensed surveyor can’t be gained anywhere else I am aware of….
A geophysicist is just as capable as a surveyor at the “here lies” part. When a land surveyor is absolutely needed is when the “here lies” becomes a legal boundary, either a surface fee boundary, a mineral rights boundary, an easment boundary, or a legal building restriction boundary.
Edit: Note to the OP, what I think should be true is not necessarily the same as what the State of Colorado says is true. The “here lies” part may require a licence also.
So… I guess I’ll be the contrarian here.
The licensee is responsible for what she/he stamps. If the licensee is comfortable with how you perform your work, and is willing to accept that responsibility, I see no ethical reason for this to be an issue.
The caveat being the rules and regulations in Colorado regarding companies offering the services that require a licensed person.
Agreed, and understood.
My rant was on the idea of circumventing the protections defined by the law, and that also means they have to be enacted upon by the DORA and the PLSC and the Attorney General’s office if the case was ever to make it to that point.
Today is a ranting to getit all out by the end of the year day apparently…… whew@!
I can’t imagine anyone who truly understands what is needed to provide survey grade geophyiscal mapping, data from drones, and ground control describing them as simple survey related services. The complexity in ensuring a valid product derived from drone data is itself anything but simple. Because you think it is simple leads me to believe your product isn’t as robust as it should be.
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