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[EQUIPMENT] Starting Out
Posted by bc-surveyor on February 24, 2022 at 11:13 pmHello,
I’m looking for recommendations on what one should get equipment wise if they were looking to start out on their own and considering budget is a large factor?
I’ve used Trimble, Leica, Topcon & Hemisphere (I believe it’s Carlson in the US). I don’t necessarily have any strong opinions of one brand being better then another. I have found Leica guns worked better for me as far as accuracy went and Trimble GPS seemed to outperform Leica but that’s only my limited experience.
I’m looking to mostly do property line/construction layout, site plans, earthworks, things along those lines (I don’t have my full professional accreditation yet). I’ll need a rover/base set, a robot and typical accessories. Being in Canada means I’ll pay an extra 12+% on top of everything on bringing anything across the border. I received a local quote on a brand new set of hemisphere S631 GPS receivers with a DC (with fieldgenius), legs, everything needed to get going for $25k cdn after tax which I thought was extremely fair. I’ve ran hemisphere before and was really impressed but can’t speak to their longevity, resale value or cost of servicing. I’ve seen some decent robots hovering around the 20k range on ebay.
Anything I should stay away from? Outdated models? Iffy brands? Unsupported hardware? Im trying to get setup for under 45-50k cdn if possible.
bc-surveyor replied 2 years, 6 months ago 11 Members · 22 Replies -
22 Replies
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There was an excellent and lengthy thread on this very topic just a few weeks back. Recommend you scroll down looking for thread titles that seem similar to your question. You may go through several pages, but, that will also help you get acquainted with the other threads that you may have missed that could be very helpful to you.
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I made it back to the 3 month mark, some great content but couldn’t find the thread you were referencing.
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I suggest not buying, but leasing and making monthly payments. You will need that nest egg to live on for a while. Pay off your leases as quickly as you can by all means, but preserve your capital.
As far as what equipment to acquire – first figure out your office work flow and work backwards from there. Shop for data collection software that meshes with your office process best and then get the instrument that your first choice runs. Then look at which dealer will offer the best service for you.
The instruments all do their jobs more or less the same. The salesmen and the magazine ads all have this process exactly reversed, but that is what works for them, not for you.
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Trimble and Leica are top of the pile. I lean toward Leica as like robots better as no heavy active track prism, GNSS they see saw who is best and I prefer the Lecia software’s hot keys/power over Trimble’s ease of use.
Carlson are geomax robots and hemisphere GNSS I understand. Don’t like the software personally but many on here do (clunky compared to Trimble/Lecia and doesn’t do ellipsoidal/geodetic distance which we need for boundary work in NZ)
However when I started out a couple years back I bought geomax Zoom90 robot and a pair of Zenith40s plus Panasonic fz-b2 tablet. Setup was just over half the cost of Lecia package.
The biggest question is who is the best dealer for support locally, without that doesn’t matter what you buy life will be much harder.
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Time flies. Wish I could recall the exact title for that thread to find it for you.
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I’d suggest a good used Leica robot, or a Zoom 90/95. We’re still using daily a 2004 made Leica TCRP 1201 robot that’s as accurate as it was the day it left the plant in Heerbrugg Switzerland. A used TS16 would be ideal as it is still in production and you could find one for around $20k CAD. Leica’s service in Ontario is great. Geomax Zoom robots are still being sent to Arizona (as far as I know) for more serious repairs, so you’re looking at 2-3 weeks turnaround time. However the local Geomax dealer usually has loaners on hand, so you can continue your work if something happens. This is our 5th year with the Zoom90 and we’re very happy with their performance.
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I’ve got a couple of comments.
IF you buy what is familiar to you, you will get going faster.
IF you buy what is BEST, you will have a slower start, but have a better long term run.
IF your biggest money maker – primary business is construction, you will need that robot. And a good Autolevel. With secondary to be GPS.
IF your biggest money maker – primary business is Land Boundaries, you will need the best GPS. (I think that is Javad.) With secondary to be ROBOT. Autolevels are relatively cheap, so get that either way.
Some people make better money in construction, BUT, don’t enjoy it. They prefer boundary work.
I take the view that it’s more important to have a positive cash flow, and to LEARN to enjoy it.
But, thats just me.
ALSO, when you choose, choose your primary software carefully. Carlson, and Intellicad is a pretty good system. But, I have not yet made my peace with Intellicad. So, I’m still on Carlson 2009, to keep real ACAD.
So, having said all that, if you take a trip about, and work with an American company for a year, that is hiring, and is progressive, you will learn stuff.
Another surveyor once said: “They should not give a survey license, to anybody who has not worked for at least a year with 3 or more DIFFERENT outfits”. You will learn stuff from a variety of sources, that you will not learn any other place.I worked a year in Chicago. Construction. I learned alot that year.
Learning Drones, Software, and scanning, and how they work can be important.
Nate
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I’m learning a new Trimble at setup this week and I am slow as molasses compared to using the Leica 1200 with Fieldgenius (used FG for 10 years now). Just things like trying to do a station offset/project point to line seem to be hidden for me. Hopefully short term like Nate says.
My question is what software are you the most comfortable with? Also what hardware are you most used to? Even setting up the Trimble is slow for me because I find the push pull optical plummet very clumsy.
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Sorry to be that guy, but if you don’t have your full professional accreditation yet, how are you able to do this? Especially the property line part. Or are you just asking for the future, or something else?
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Thank you for all the responses. Im leaning away from renting as if I ever do buy I will be out all the money spent renting. And I imagine jobs will come in very slow at the beginning so it may take some time to break even if I rent.
There is a semi local dealer I can get a zoom 90 from. I had never heard of them until the other day. How’s their reputation and resale value? For those that have them, would you buy a new zoom 90 or a used ts16/s7? Is it worth the extra money to buy a newer instrument (ts16 vs a tcrp1203+) so that it will be supported for longer and probably retain its value more?
As far as familiarity, I’ve used many DC surveying programs. It’s not a big deal in my mind to spend a few days going through new software and figuring out the nitty gritty details of it. I’ve never come across one that really bugged me once I learnt how to use it properly.
Nate, I couldn’t agree more about working with different outfits. A fantastic way to learn to tips and tricks.
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Posted by: @jph
Sorry to be that guy, but if you don’t have your full professional accreditation yet, how are you able to do this? Especially the property line part. Or are you just asking for the future, or something else?
Maybe the rules are different in my jurisdiction (BC, Canada) but if I’m not defining property boundaries (subdividing, mortgage certificates, posting) then a professional surveyor is not required. This is referred to as a construction surveyor up here and account for about 30% of survey outfits. The property line part I would only be laying out proposed fence line.
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Posted by: @shea-gleadle
Im leaning away from renting as if I ever do buy I will be out all the money spent renting.
Leases usually have buyout clauses at the end of the lease, frequently $1. So it is really a payment plan, and your lease payments are going towards buying the item. At any time during the lease you can make the remaining paymants, plus the buyout, and own the item. And while making the lease payments you get to write off the whole amount from taxes. Canadian tax law may not allow it, IDK, but it is commonly done in the US. Profit is the amount you are left with after expenses, and taxes are a huge expense, so understanding tax ramifications of your decisions is key to being successful in business.
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Posted by: @norman-oklahomaPosted by: @shea-gleadle
Im leaning away from renting as if I ever do buy I will be out all the money spent renting.
Leases usually have buyout clauses at the end of the lease, frequently $1. So it is really a payment plan, and your lease payments are going towards buying the item. At any time during the lease you can make the remaining paymants, plus the buyout, and own the item. And while making the lease payments you get to write off the whole amount from taxes. Canadian tax law may not allow it, IDK, but it is commonly done in the US. Profit is the amount you are left with after expenses, and taxes are a huge expense, so understanding tax ramifications of your decisions is key to being successful in business.
Interesting, I will definitely look into this option. Thanks
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Posted by: @shea-gleadle
Being in Canada means I’ll pay an extra 12+% on top of everything on bringing anything across the border.
There are no survey equipment manufacturers in Canada, meaning that at some point anything you could buy has passed over the border from outside, the 12% was paid, and that cost is built in.
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A few thoughts I have about startup equipment:
I chose financing equipment when I started 5 years ago. It was a little scary but I made sure to put enough down so that if I needed to sell the equipment I could accept a reasonable price and still be able to pay off the loan. It seemed like a win-win to me. I got the really good equipment that I wanted and I still had quite a bit of my startup money. That philosophy worked well to as I had no trouble selling my original gear when I started making money and wished to upgrade.
I would consider used gps equipment but I would only buy a new robot as there are many more things to go wrong with those and you don’t know how they were treated by the previous owner.
Buy the best equipment that you can because you’re going to have enough to worry about without having to learn new things or deal with slow equipment. One of your big advantages of being “the new guy” is that you can offer a fast turnaround and good gear will help with that.
Gregg
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Posted by: @gmpls
A few thoughts I have about startup equipment:
I chose financing equipment when I started 5 years ago. It was a little scary but I made sure to put enough down so that if I needed to sell the equipment I could accept a reasonable price and still be able to pay off the loan. It seemed like a win-win to me. I got the really good equipment that I wanted and I still had quite a bit of my startup money. That philosophy worked well to as I had no trouble selling my original gear when I started making money and wished to upgrade.
I would consider used gps equipment but I would only buy a new robot as there are many more things to go wrong with those and you don’t know how they were treated by the previous owner.
Buy the best equipment that you can because you’re going to have enough to worry about without having to learn new things or deal with slow equipment. One of your big advantages of being “the new guy” is that you can offer a fast turnaround and good gear will help with that.
Gregg
Solid advice, thank you.
I was thinking the same thing about a used total station. Being witness to how some field crews treat them versus how I know I would baby it if I was the one footing the repair bills.
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Posted by: @gmpls
I would consider used gps equipment but I would only buy a new robot as there are many more things to go wrong with those and you don’t know how they were treated by the previous owner.
Think this is excellent advice, robots are a fragile high precision piece of scientific instrumentation with lots of moving parts, that require careful calibration. GNSS is essentially a computer in a toughened case, as long as software ok it works out it doesn’t.
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Posted by: @shea-gleadle
Thank you for all the responses. Im leaning away from renting as if I ever do buy I will be out all the money spent renting. And I imagine jobs will come in very slow at the beginning so it may take some time to break even if I rent.
There is a semi local dealer I can get a zoom 90 from. I had never heard of them until the other day. How’s their reputation and resale value? For those that have them, would you buy a new zoom 90 or a used ts16/s7? Is it worth the extra money to buy a newer instrument (ts16 vs a tcrp1203+) so that it will be supported for longer and probably retain its value more?
As far as familiarity, I’ve used many DC surveying programs. It’s not a big deal in my mind to spend a few days going through new software and figuring out the nitty gritty details of it. I’ve never come across one that really bugged me once I learnt how to use it properly.
Nate, I couldn’t agree more about working with different outfits. A fantastic way to learn to tips and tricks.
The Zoom 90 is in fact a Leica TS15 in a different color and with different onboard software and it is made in Singapore. Leica and Geomax are part of the Hexagon group. With Zoom 90 you can choose between 3 field software: Carlson’s SurvCE/PC, Fieldgenius, and Geomax’s own X-Pad. You can expect Leica’s reliability from them. About the resale price, I can’t say much, but if I was just starting out now, I’d buy a used Zoom 90 for a third of the new price. We have two 1″- Z90 and use them every day for construction layout for the past 5 years.
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I purchased a pair of Hemisphere S631 and a Mesa Tablet with FieldGenius from Bench-Mark in Calgary about 18 months ago. They are used 5 days a week and have been a great purchase and well worth what I paid. They have held up well and I’m not easy on equipment.
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