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Did the surveyor represent my best interest
andy-j replied 10 years, 9 months ago 22 Members · 68 Replies
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I have to agree with you asking the question. I don’t know the answer, but that email would certainly make me wonder. Testimony of one person is not of much value in this kind of thing, and it is completely without value when the surveyor knows of a dispute as to the location of the line and the testimony is given by one of the disputing parties. If the line was that uncertain that I had to rely on testimony, I would make sure to look for corroborating and contrary testimony. I would have got it out of you the information about the other testimony available. But I know in a dispute situation that this is going to be part of the project, so you probably would hire a surveyor with a lower price who doesn’t know as much about this kind of thing. It takes at least threefold the time to perform an investigation than it does to simple take some measurements, and time is money. And it takes some expertise to know what to look for, how to look for it, what to make of it if you find it, etc.. That email is a clear indication that you could have had a better opinion, but does not necessarily mean the one you recieved is deficient in any way.
I think I would get a second opinion if it really matters to you. But first I would take the current surveyor up on the offer for more or better explanation. Give the surveyor the other testimony. We surveyors (like the rest of the judicial system) are allowed to change our opinions based on new evidence.
Don’t feel too bad. Many people hurt themselves in this process all the time. Not many realize the nature of the task or the service provided so go with the lowest price offered and don’t give out all the information they have. Not saying that is what happened here, but that email does make me wonder.
You should also be aware that challenging the opinion now is entirely different than challenging it 10 years from now. 10 years from now the next surveyor is going to have to take into consideration your acquiesence in the survey opinion you just received.
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Mr. Subvet
I’m certain you thought you were asking a fairly simple question with a fairly simple answer. As you can see, the world of land surveying is not as simple as the general public assumes it to be. You have been provided all sorts of wonderful information above, but, it does not fully answer your base question. That is primarily because each of us works in a slightly different environment than others. First, the State or Province in which you are located may have some impact. Some States are based on the Public Land Survey System while others are recognized as Metes and Bounds States and yet others are a mix of the two systems plus there may odd things like Spanish Land Grants involved. The history of land surveying in your immediate area, the prior surveyors working that specific area through the decades/centuries, the official recordation (or not) of surveys over that period of time, local municipality regulations on property development (or none) and a long list of other factors impact how today’s surveyor does his job and how he arrives at his conclusions.
1. In which State or Province are you located?
2. Which County or Parish
3. Is your land suburban, rural or far from much of anything
4. Is the land covered primarily with grass, low-lying brush or weeds, scattered trees, forested, mostly rocks or what?
5. How did the tree row come into existence? Hand-planted in past 50 years? Hand-planted 150 years ago? Why was it planted? Is it basically straight? Why would it have been planted in the first place.
6. Did your surveyor explain to you how it could be that there are three “pins” within 17 feet of one another at the southeast corner?
7. Was the individual who performed the on-site work for you a licensed land surveyor or was he an employee of a firm 100 miles away from your land with 50 unlicensed workers doing the work being supervised remotely by the licensed surveyor?
8. What kind of equipment did you witness being used by the worker? Describe its appearance. (We don’t expect others to know the correct names for our tools as we don’t necessarily know the names of the tools with which they work.)
9. Was the invoice your received in excess of $3000 or less than $500? We don’t care exactly what it was, but, it might be an indicator of concern to us as we analyze your situation.
10. Is the terrain along the sides of your 1600-foot by 700-foot(roughly) tract nearly flat, gently rolling or very steep? Yes, this can be very important.
11. Please describe the size of the “pins” and the triangular stone you observed.
12. Are there current or near-future plans to do anything very close to this border such that if those changes had to be reversed it would be very painful financially? -
Mr. Subvet
1. In which State or Province are you located? PA
2. Which County or Parish Schuylkill County
3. Is your land suburban, rural or far from much of anything Rural
Rural, the land appears to be second growth forest, except for the outer edge trees that appear to be much older, they outer edge trees are primarily white oak, all in similar diameter, the woods are mix of hardwood, cherry, black locust, maples and oaks
4. Is the land covered primarily with grass, low-lying brush or weeds, scattered trees, forested, mostly rocks or what?
The land is primarily woods with farm fields on both side
5. How did the tree row come into existence? Hand-planted in past 50 years? Hand-planted 150 years ago? Why was it planted? Is it basically straight? Why would it have been planted in the first place.
I do not know the history of the trees but I would safely assume the trees on the tree line are 100+ years old, the woods are 2nd growth, maybe 50 or 60 year olds (the oaks are 18 to 20″ dia at chest height), I assume but have no proof they were hand planted, they are in a straight line, both sides of the property
6. Did your surveyor explain to you how it could be that there are three “pins” within 17 feet of one another at the southeast corner?
He really didn’t explain this in details, just saying old surveys, and some are more accurate than others. This is why I wanted a new “real survey done”
7. Was the individual who performed the on-site work for you a licensed land surveyor or was he an employee of a firm 100 miles away from your land with 50 unlicensed workers doing the work being supervised remotely by the licensed surveyor?
Yes the individual was a licensed PLS, I do not know about his helper
8. What kind of equipment did you witness being used by the worker? Describe its appearance. (We don’t expect others to know the correct names for our tools as we don’t necessarily know the names of the tools with which they work.)
Very expensive looking are large expensive tripods, I really didn’t see all of the equipment. One looked like a transit, and one looked like a triangle mirror mounted on a tripod. They could of had more equipment. I didn’t see all of it.
9. Was the invoice your received in excess of $3000 or less than $500? We don’t care exactly what it was, but, it might be an indicator of concern to us as we analyze your situation.
In excess of $3000,
10. Is the terrain along the sides of your 1600-foot by 700-foot(roughly) tract nearly flat, gently rolling or very steep? Yes, this can be very important.
My property goes up and over a hill, the hill is in the center of the 1600ft, maybe 400 ft change of elevation, it is not too steep, typical NE PA landscape
11. Pleases describe the size of the “pins” and the triangular stone you observed.
3 pins on the SE corner (actually 4 now with the new pin) = one is 1″ diameter galvanized water pipe (match’s the one on the SW corner), one is 5/8 piece of rebar, one is wooden stake (looks like it is 10 years old), and now the new stake by the new survey. The SE Galvanized pipe is 15′ north and maybe 7 feet east of the new survey pin. The other 2 old pins are within about 2 feet of each other, they are maybe 10′ south and 15′ west of the galvanized pipe. (This is another reason that I had no faith in the original 1″ pipe)
The triangle stone is a field stone, maybe 6″ wide with 12″ sides, it lines perfectly up with the tree line and is maybe 30 feet south and 20 feet west of the SW pin.
The SW is an old 1″ diameter galvanized pipe, is located approx. 20′ feet into woods from the tree lines.
I have vague recollection of finding the rebar pin 7 years ago when I bought the property in the general area of the triangle stone, But I have no real proof of this pin, I’m sure it was there, but we can’t find it. The surveyor hand a very expensive looking medal detector wand device looking for the pin. That is when he pointed out the stone to me. I never noticed it before that.
12. Are there current or near-future plans to do anything very close to this border such that if those changes had to be reversed it would be very painful financially?
There are no plans with property, I was having problems with the neighbor tearing down my posted signs, and telling people they could hunt 20 feet into the woods. I just wanted to know where the line actually was.
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Mr. Subvet
There were no Pins at the NW or NE corners, they end at the road and look to make a 90 degree angle with the road. There is a very large black walnut tree (largest tree on my property) at the NW corner (I always assumed that was the property marker), the new survey put a pin between the road and the walnut tree, essentially splitting the tree between me and my neighbor, NE is very similar situation.
Some more info, the opposite side of the road is farm fields, with tree lines that look like they match up with my property lines. The lot across the streets basically mirrors my lot, except it is mostly farm fields with tree lines on the West and East side of it. It appears that if you go from the SW iron pin to the NW pin, it will cause the property line on the opposite side of the road to pitch off the tree line (sorry I do not know the correct surveying vernacular). I’ve asked my surveyor to verify if this is correct or not. He has not responded.
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
This sounds like a pretty typical scenario for you guys. I’m all PLSSia so I’ll refrain from further significant comment. Thank you Mr. Subvet for making your situation much more understandable to us. One final question. How does your deed describe your property? That is which corner is first listed and are the dimensions merely numbers or do they say something like, “thence 100 rods along a tree row to an iron pin”?
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
WOW, I thought I was asking an easy question:'( , I only wish I would have found this site a few weeks ago.
Below is exactly what my deed says
BEGINNING at stone in public road in line of land now or late of N**** L**********, now or late W***** M*******Estate: thence along said line south 27 ¼ degrees east one hundred and eleven perches to a stone; thence along land now or late of D***** B******, now or late A***** M*****, South 61 ½ degrees east thirty six perches to a stone, thence by land now or late of J*** S****’s Estate, now or late of F**** S***, north 27 ¼ degrees west one hundred and eleven perches to a post and stones in said public road: thence along said road north 61 ½ degrees west thirty-six perches to place of BEGINNING.
CONTAINING: twenty five and sixty-one perches strict measure
OK, If I am reading this correctly, my property is a 594′ x 1831.5′,
can I assume the corners are perfect 90 degreess?
A rod = Perch = 16.5′?
I’ve completed PhD level statistical design classes that are more straight forward
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
No, that describes a parallelogram (sketch to follow).
Now I am really wondering why the stone at the southwest corner was not held since a stone is called for by the deed and the found stone lines up with the tree line.
Yes, a perch is 16.5′.
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
> I’ve completed PhD level statistical design classes that are more straight forward
LOL; that is funny right there, I don’t care who you are…..
> can I assume the corners are perfect 90 degreess?
No? I didn’t take the time to lay it out; but 27 1/4 + 61 1/2 do not add up to 90, but I might be missing something…..
> Below is exactly what my deed says
>
> BEGINNING at stone in public road in line of land now or late of N**** L**********, now or late W***** M*******Estate: thence along said line south 27 ¼ degrees east one hundred and eleven perches to a stone; thence along land now or late of D***** B******, now or late A***** M*****, South 61 ½ degrees east thirty six perches to a stone, thence by land now or late of J*** S****’s Estate, now or late of F**** S***, north 27 ¼ degrees west one hundred and eleven perches to a post and stones in said public road: thence along said road north 61 ½ degrees west thirty-six perches to place of BEGINNING.
>
> CONTAINING: twenty five and sixty-one perches strict measureAt first look, I’d say you will need the deeds that describe the land now or late of the folks in your deed; they control where the original lines were.
Then go searching for these stones; making sure thay are still in their original postion.
> WOW, I thought I was asking an easy question:'( , I only wish I would have found this site a few weeks ago.
Better late than never; never say die!
> OK, If I am reading this correctly, my property is a 594′ x 1831.5′,
>
>
> A rod = Perch = 16.5′?As a rule; but I would make sure my perch was the same perch that was used to measure off the number of perches.
Some good reads on deed interpretation:
Extrinsic Evidence
Ten Rules for Land Deed Interpretation
Principles of Deed ConstructionAnd you though Surveying was easy:snarky:
If it was, everybody would be doing it….B-)
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will! -
Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
a perch/rod/rood = 16.5′ which is a quarter of a Gunter’s Chain (66′).
You don’t need to blank out the names in the description… they are probably long dead… the deed is of public record also.
Your corners are NOT right angles. It is a 4 sided figure being a parallelogram.
I’m surprised he didn’t use the stone, unless it’s been displaced/moved. Did you say that it was loose?
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
>
> Some good reads on deed interpretation:
> Extrinsic Evidence
> Ten Rules for Land Deed Interpretation
> Principles of Deed Construction
>Aloha Doug:
Thanks for the links. They are very educational! -
Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
Honestly I’ll have to go back and look at the stone, I didn’t pay a lot of attention to it on our walk. He just pointed it out, and we kept going,
I guess this conversation took a long time to get to this point. So are my concerns justified?
His email just didn’t feel right to me on how he determined the pin to be correct. I’m not saying he’s wrong, how he determined the hold point just didn’t feel right too me that you would use anyone involved in the disputes word on the boundaries. That includes my word.
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
I am but a bee; the internet is my flower…B-)
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will! -
Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
> Honestly I’ll have to go back and look at the stone, I didn’t pay a lot of attention to it on our walk. He just pointed it out, and we kept going,
I thought you mentioned above that it was on its side.
> I guess this conversation took a long time to get to this point. So are my concerns justified?
Of course they are, it’s your property, but I also think that as you’ve found out here there are A LOT of things that a surveyor have to take into consideration during the course of a survey, and if one had to stop and explain every single detail of his thought process, a survey may never end.
> His email just didn’t feel right to me on how he determined the pin to be correct. I’m not saying he’s wrong, how he determined the hold point just didn’t feel right too me that you would use anyone involved in the disputes word on the boundaries. That includes my word.
A surveyor has to take many, many things into account. We’re usually pretty good listeners and able to scrape out the good facts from the BS. Ad on top of that science and math and law and you have surveying. You could take the above survey and have 5 different surveyors do it and they come up with 8 or 10 or 13 different surveys… none of them major differences, but differences nonetheless. I think you are also overly concerned about his term “hold point”, but that’s just me. I think his email was short, but yet to the point. Again, if we all had to spend time explaining every single corner to every single client and adjoiner, we’d never get done and drive ourselves crazy. You might ask him if he did a “Report of Survey”. PA probably doesn’t require them, so he may not have. WV and IN may be the only states that do. I had to prepare one this summer for a client that didn’t want to pay for a survey because he didn’t like that I had prepared him a sketch and he only asked for field work… even though the end total was within the estimate range that I gave him… Talk about frustrating.
Anyway. I hope I’ve been helpful. I’m signing off until tomorrow.
Carl
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Time for Pennsylvania Surveyors to Jump In On This
It was on its side, but I didn’t go over and pay much attention to it. I couldn’t tell you if it was loose or partially submerged in the ground. He just pointed it out and explained the history of old time surveyors setting stones like this to mark surveys. The stone appeared to be an equilateral triangle, with 12 to 14” sides, and maybe 6” wide. It was lying on its side (6” portion flat on the ground) and pointing at the tree line. It looked like a small ramp. Once he pointed the stone out, it appeared to be in an unnatural position.
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Here is a sketch of the subject parcel (annotated in feet) based on the description:
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OK… It looks like the bearing quadrants are incorrect on the northerly and southerly boundaries. I tried looking up your deed to see for myself, but it appears that Schuylkill County does not have its public records online. Here is what it would look like if you flipped the quadrants on the northerly and southerly boundaries:
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Looks like tax parcel no. 30-07-0021.
My deed sketch looks like Bow Tie’s. There is probably a quadrant typo in the 2nd and 4th courses.
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