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Very observant to realize that some have “settled” for it.
Engineering indeed carries prestige. However, the practice of engineering is almost the opposite of surveying.
A surveyor’s charge is to discover what is, a boundary, the shape of the land or such.
An engineer’s charge is to apply known physical characteristics to create a predictable result for given circumstances.
A survey cannot be engineered. A survey may be needed to gather the required information for an engineer to do his work, but it isn’t engineering.
Putting on words like geomatics or engineering because they imply prestige for that reason alone is at best misleading and at worst deceptive.
Be proud of our heritage!
@jacavell The contrary is easily shown, both definitionally and historically.
Firstly, subdivision work requires quite a lot of design, so it easily fits within your narrow definition of engineering.
Secondly, Topographic Engineering, Cadastral Engineering, Right of Way Engineering, etc. are historical terms with wonderful heritages.
See
Topographic Engineering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Corps_of_Topographical_Engineers
Cadastral Engineer, used for a period by BLM: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/9180.0-3
Right of Way Engineering: https://www.nj.gov/transportation/eng/documents/SEM/pdf/ROWEng2005s.pdf
I am proud of our heritage. My B.S. is in Surveying, and I’ve always worked as a surveyor. But your differentiation above between surveying and engineering is counterfactual. You describe the work of only two types of surveyors: topographic surveyor and boundary surveyors. A lot of the money that surveyors make has a lot more “design” involved than those two subdisciplines.
I agree that “putting on airs” by trying to select a more prestigious name for one’s occupation is vain (in both senses). But if we were going to do it, “geomatics” was a swing and miss.
Surveying Engineering, Geospatial Engineering and Geomatics Engineering are all similar terms and are representative of a subset of Surveying.
ASCE used Surveying Engineering but changed their division to Geomatics Engineering. USACE uses Geospatial Engineering.
When someone askes me what I do for a living I say “Surveying” or I am a “Land Surveyor” and most people are at least somewhat familiar.
I do not have an issue with any of the other terms other than different organizations using different terms as noted above: Geomatics vs Geospatial Engineering.
When someone askes me what I do for a living I say “Surveying” or I am a “Land Surveyor” and most people are at least somewhat familiar.
That is my usual response as well. Most of the time, there is at least some level of understanding (oh, you stand by the road and take pictures), with the very occasional person who has no clue.
I’ve got no issue with any of the older or newer terms for the programs or job classifications. But, where I live, Land Surveyor is the more typical naming convention.
Thank you for reading and replying to what I wrote.
Indeed, following especially WWI the term engineer was thought to elevate any occupation and was attached to several that were comical in retrospect.
In fact, the examples you cited, i.e., Topographic Engineering, Cadastral Engineering, Right of Way Engineering would have been etymologically more correct as Topographic Surveying, Cadastral Surveying, and Right of Way Surveying.
Labels, once they gain cachet with the common tongue, tend to be used as if correct, and those who come along later grow to assume that they must be correct since in their experience that’s how it has been. Euphemisms tend to be sticky and hinder communication when the speaker assumes the slang meaning but the listener hears the literal.
Engineering designs predictable results. A survey is about discovering what isn’t known. I find it difficult to design what isn’t known without knowing what wasn’t known to begin with.
I hope any readers of this thread are given pause to consider how they speak and write, especially with clients and proteges.
A bit of information (historical) from the Etymological Dictionary:
geodesy
1560s, “the art of land surveying,” from Modern Latin geodaesia, from Greek geodaisia “division of the earth;” ultimately from gē “earth” (see Gaia) + stem of daiein “to divide,” from PIE *dai-, extended form of root *da- “to divide.” In modern use it refers to mathematical calculations derived from measuring large portions of the earth’s surface. In this sense, in reference to structures, from 1936.
survey
- 1400, “to consider, contemplate,” from Anglo-French surveier, Old French sorveoir “look (down) at, look upon, notice; guard, watch,” from Medieval Latin supervidere “oversee, inspect,” from Latin super “over” (see super-) + videre “to see” (from PIE root *weid- “to see”). Meaning “examine the condition of” is from mid-15c. That of “to take linear measurements of a tract of ground” is recorded from 1540s. Related: Surveyed; surveying; surveyance (late 14c.).
No results were found for geomatics.
The term Geomatics has been around now since at least the 1990’s?
1970s, I believe.
I hope any readers of this thread are given pause to consider how they speak and write, especially with clients and proteges.
Cool, just let us know when you deem it appropriate for us plebeians to use words you deem unprofessional. Is there a mailing list for that?
Did other gatekeepers in the past prohibit the words geodesy and survey from being used until a certain amount of time had passed? When does a word morph from being unacceptable in a particular context to being the only possible way to describe something?
Inquiring minds want to know.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanThere is no “gatekeeping” here. Just education. Choosing to ignore history is like not referring to a parent parcel in a boundary dispute, unprofessional.
So, if you prefer a term whose obvious intent was to create a synonym presumed to have better “curb appeal” than one whose meaning is accurate, it’s a (mostly) free world. Go for it.
survey
- 1400, “to consider, contemplate,” from Anglo-French surveier, Old French sorveoir “look (down) at, look upon, notice; guard, watch,” from Medieval Latin supervidere “oversee, inspect,” from Latin super “over” (see super-) + videre “to see” (from PIE root *weid- “to see”). Meaning “examine the condition of” is from mid-15c. That of “to take linear measurements of a tract of ground” is recorded from 1540s. Related: Surveyed; surveying; surveyance (late 14c.).
That’s funny- when I told kids that my dad surveyed when I was little both my friends AND their parents asked if he went door to door. Pretty sure the curb appeal on that one is pretty lackluster.
To quote the California PLS Act (your mileage may vary):
8751. Representing self as licensed
No person shall represent himself or herself as, or use the title of, or any abbreviation or combination of the words in the title of, professional land surveyor, licensed land surveyor, land surveyor, land survey engineer, survey engineer, geodetic engineer, geomatics engineer, or geometronic engineer unless he or she is the holder of a valid, unsuspended, and unrevoked license.At the end of the day law is what holds, whether people have their gripes or not.
Side note: geomatics engineer is an acceptable title according to the above.
Another example of adopting/misusing a word to elevate an activity. Polsters know that calling their product a survey elevates it apparent dignity.
What your children had heard called serving is accurately named polling.
A poll takes a sample (a good poll tries to make it a representative same) from which to EXtrapolate a result.
A survey has theoretical access to all the data from which a true representation is selected from which results may be INterpolated.
NEVER answer a poll if it is introduced as a survey without correcting the pollster!
NEVER answer a poll if it is introduced as a survey without correcting the pollster!
I’ll jump in a time machine and tell my 5-year-old self that.
Thank you.
That is an excellent example of how easily the ignorant (in this case politicians and their appointees) are gullible to outside persuaders; similar to the pollsters who successfully call themselves surveyors.
Another example of adopting/misusing a word to elevate an activity. Polsters know that calling their product a survey elevates it apparent dignity.
What your children had heard called serving is accurately named polling.
A poll takes a sample (a good poll tries to make it a representative same) from which to EXtrapolate a result.
A survey has theoretical access to all the data from which a true representation is selected from which results may be INterpolated.
Come on man, this is so made up. I mean, you’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own definitions.
Thank you.
You’re not welcome, given how you’re cherry-picking the living daylights out of others’ statements.
Listen (or README if you’d like to be pedantic): you can dislike certain terminology used by a vast majority of the profession if that’s what makes you happy. BUT… I frankly don’t care how right you think you are. Technically speaking your point of view isn’t the end-all-be-all, nor is it codified.
Right? I only cite the sources of my points made. If you prefer not to, it’s your choice.
Nice cartoon. Pictures are said to save lots of words 😉 (My emoji can’t compete.)
Do me a favor please, and note that the definitions I use aren’t mine but have been carefully cited for precedence. Like finding the evidence needed to determine the correct monument when one finds a pincushion.
NEVER answer a poll if it is introduced as a survey without correcting the pollster!
Wait, wait, wait….do you seriously try and correct anyone using the work “survey” to refer to work other than licensed land surveying?
I’d say that’s a whole new level of pedantry, but generally pedants are simply concerned with attention to detail, not with forcing others to accept their own version of reality.
I get that you don’t like the term geomatics – but your own definition of “survey” as you posted above encompasses many more things than licensed land surveying.
Not to mention that the definition of professional land surveying differs from state to state…
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanPrimarily sourcing a dictionary is a rather shallow display- especially when following up and providing such a narrow-minded definition of “engineering” to support your personal opinion. The profession evolves daily, whether you wish to evolve with it or not.
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