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Corner Records from finding monuments buried deep
Posted by shawn-billings on January 20, 2017 at 3:00 amIn Texas, we have no record of surveys or corner records.
When we survey property that is described by metes and bounds, our “field note description” will often be recorded as part of the deed transaction. Our descriptions read with all or most of the detail shown on the plat (at least as it relates to the boundary).
When we survey property that is part of a recorded subdivision, we typically only prepare a plat. The deed will generally call for the name of the lot, block and subdivision. Because of this, there is no way to pass along survey information. I have written a metes and bounds description of a lot because the subdivision plat was vague and I wanted to pass along what I’d found, but that is a rare exception.
Having said all of that, I have read others mention Corner Records for years on the message boards. I had always assumed it was only related to section corners. Do Corner Records apply to any boundary corner? Are there any colonial States with Corner Record requirements or is it only used in PSS States? How does a Record of Survey differ from a Corner Record?
bill93 replied 7 years, 7 months ago 13 Members · 23 Replies -
23 Replies
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Corner Records were originally only for public land corners. Until about the mid 1980s there were no filing requirements for subdivision lots as long as there was no material discrepancies from record. The corner record requirement was added for those Lot surveys so they became letter sized Lot surveys that are filed with the County Surveyor. Record of Survey is still required for surveys that reveal a material discrepancy and tracts not shown on a filed map.
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The only corner records, per se, required here are section corners (8 per section). But, we record nearly all surveys, so the details are available to future surveyors.
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Most States with Corner Record statutes allow for filing or recording on any survey monument. They are more popular for PLSS Corners because they are required for anything monumented by the GLO, and to memorialize connections to original Corners.
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I often find a County Surveyor’s self recorded property description in the deed records.
That ended here in the 1960s as more surveyors began business in the area and the office became subject to scrutiny and was abolished.
The County Surveyor could record his surveys without being charged any fee.
Today it would be hard to account for the recording fees involved since they start at $40 for the first page and a drawing is more.
Many times our current survey is not used as the description that is placed in the new deed and the buyer usually is not interested in the several hundred dollars of fees to have the new survey recorded.
Yesterday received a call from a surveyor that said his crew had found a rod with a cap that had my license number on it and could not find any property description to the tract other than “less and excepted that 30 acres….”.
Checking my memory and then my records, found that I had no information showing I had made any such survey.
Returning his call he only said that it was my number on the caps and could not describe them by color or tell me any more information about them as his crew did not note or relay to him anything except the number.
With that as the only information, I said that if that is all the info he could provide, I can not say that it is my cap even if it bears my number, that is not enough for me to say that it came from me as there is more information on the cap and I use different color of caps for different reasons.
I basically had to tell him that some strange activities have been going on in the neighbor hood and he should at least question the seller and ask them to provide some proof that a survey had been made in way of property description and drawing.
A week or so ago another surveyor ask about an apparently recent monument found with cap containing my name and license number stamped on it that is at least an hour away from me in an area that I have not made a survey.
After RTK became available, there has been a rash of non licensed surveying occurring and so far no one is willing to comment or will admit to remembering who did the surveying, just simply that they were sure someone came out and surveyed.
No one has been willing to send me a picture and actual location of what they say they found.
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A Harris, post: 410093, member: 81 wrote: …A week or so ago another surveyor ask about an apparently recent monument found with cap containing my name and license number stamped on it that is at least an hour away from me in an area that I have not made a survey.
After RTK became available, there has been a rash of non licensed surveying occurring and so far no one is willing to comment or will admit to remembering who did the surveying, just simply that they were sure someone came out and surveyed.
No one has been willing to send me a picture and actual location of what they say they found.
???????????I’ll be the first to admit I have completely forgotten surveys I have prepared. I do have a ‘system’ of recall that includes a bank of hard-drives dating to the mid-nineties, but that can get tedious.
Some time back I did have a builder/ developer call me with the same situation; he had found a capped pin with my name and number…in an area I had truly never worked. It was actually a fairly new sub-division laid out by others. I had to see the pin for myself.
It was bent and only stuck in the ground a few tenths, on a lot that had recently been graded. Graded after a ‘bit’ of fill…from an area about a quarter of a mile away. I had surveyed some unplatted property 10 years earlier near the corner where the fill dirt was originally excavated.
Apparently a dirt crew excavated the pin and it wound up in the fill at the lot. The grading contractor must have seen it and thought it came from the lot he was leveling and stood it up near where he ‘thought’ the property was located.
A comedy of events…that left me shaking my head.
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I have a pin with cap solidly attached laying around here somewhere that we found one day. We found it laying on the ground a good 60 feet or more from where it had been set about 10 years earlier. It was the only one that had been missing during our reconnaissance. It was bent a little but not too badly. Maybe someday I’ll remember to take it with me to an educational program where I know the surveyor who set it will be attending.
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I love getting pulled out monuments of mine.
I’ve even had people expect me to go out and put it back……….for free of course…….lol:cool:
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Shawn Billings, post: 410075, member: 6521 wrote:
When we survey property that is part of a recorded subdivision, we typically only prepare a plat. The deed will generally call for the name of the lot, block and subdivision. Because of this, there is no way to pass along survey information.
I dont understand, isn’t a plat the best way to pass on survey information? A record of survey is a plat.
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If I’m ever forced to move to a non-recurring State, my first task will be whipping up support for recording. The effort will include Statutory limits on review and associated fees…
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thebionicman, post: 410125, member: 8136 wrote: If I’m ever forced to move to a non-recurring State, my first task will be whipping up support for recording. The effort will include Statutory limits on review and associated fees…
I would go further and make sure there was no review required for any plat that is not creating new boundaries. In Alaska, record of survey plats go straight to the recorder and are recorded unless they don’t contain a statement indicating that the survey is not a subdivision.
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aliquot, post: 410149, member: 2486 wrote: I would go further and make sure there was no review required for any plat that is not creating new boundaries. In Alaska, record of survey plats go straight to the recorder and are recorded unless they don’t contain a statement indicating that the survey is not a subdivision.
By review I mean about a dozen items on a checklist such as North arrow, seal, signature, date, etc. I am no fan of in depth review by recorders..
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Some Corner Records look like a mini Record of Survey. Have to admit I’ve made a couple like that.
The requirements for Corner Records are not as stringent as for a RS. Which is why the vast majority of perpetuation records use the CR. The County Surveyor is still closely watching how the points are set and established. Which is a good thing.
Most centerline ties are CR’s now because many of the GLO corners are in suburbia.
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Holy Cow, post: 410079, member: 50 wrote: The only corner records, per se, required here are section corners (8 per section). But, we record nearly all surveys, so the details are available to future surveyors.
Should be 9 per section. The center is just another 1/4 corner.
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I have read these posts over the years and I obviously live in a different world (rural Upstate New York) than some of you do.
We are a non-recording state. Depending upon the county almost all maps may be filed or perhaps hardly any, it must be some sort of convention and the opinion of the bulk of the attorneys that create the differences with regard to surveys performed for conveyances.
As far as maps relating to municipal approvals, they always must be recorded.
The part that I have a hard time understanding is the types of fee schedules that many of you deal with to record a map. Every county that I work in charges $10 to file a map. One county just started having the real property department look them over for obvious deficiencies prior to recording. We have no county surveyors and that may create a difference.
Enlighten me.
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Stephen Johnson, post: 410224, member: 53 wrote: Should be 9 per section. The center is just another 1/4 corner.
The Center of Section was not routinely set by the GLO. A common element of recording law is that Corner Records are not required for PLSS Corners not set during the original surveys.
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Plenty of others disagree with me, but, in my opinion, the center corner was not set in my neck of the woods by the original government surveyor, thus it is not a government corner. It is an extremely important corner, but it is not a perpetuation of anything by the government other than a fantasy location. A very high percentage of center corners were set by the entrymen years after government ownership was out of the picture. They did the best they could, for the most part, and acted in good faith. A fair percentage of center corners were set by the County Surveyor but not always in accordance with the so-called cookbook method. Also, depending on the year it was set, the location might agree with what was the current procedure or it might agree with the procedure that would have been used in the year the outer boundary of the section was first laid out.
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dms330, post: 410225, member: 2118 wrote: I have read these posts over the years and I obviously live in a different world (rural Upstate New York) than some of you do.
We are a non-recording state. Depending upon the county almost all maps may be filed or perhaps hardly any, it must be some sort of convention and the opinion of the bulk of the attorneys that create the differences with regard to surveys performed for conveyances.
As far as maps relating to municipal approvals, they always must be recorded.
The part that I have a hard time understanding is the types of fee schedules that many of you deal with to record a map. Every county that I work in charges $10 to file a map. One county just started having the real property department look them over for obvious deficiencies prior to recording. We have no county surveyors and that may create a difference.
Enlighten me.
That’s very similar to my area except our fee to record a plat is $21.
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thebionicman, post: 410226, member: 8136 wrote: A common element of recording law is that Corner Records are not required for PLSS Corners not set during the original surveys.
I haven’t researched the law, but from the corner records I’ve seen i n Iowa, the practice includes recording the center and 1/16 corners. The form includes a grid like this.
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Some assume any aliquot corner is a government corner. They try to file everything under the sun.
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[USER=2118]@dms330[/USER]
Our county’s budget is strained with hundreds of miles of roads to maintain and to simply keep up with the required amount of offices filled and operating according to state regulations.
960 sq mi and 30k population.
A copy of a plat is $5 min and then some rate per sqft of paper.
Deed copies are $1 a page, we can scan with a wand or take pictures. I use CamScan app on my android phone.
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