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Civil 3d vs. LDD
I’m asked for a proposal for topo delivered in Civil 3D format. Is that different from the 2007 LDD I use?
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22 Replies
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Yes, it is a different format technically as Civil 3d has lots of styles setup for the viewing of data in a particular way, they may want you to provide a file with their style format’s aligned to your data and this will only be able to be done in civil 3d. Some workarounds can be done. You can match layers and blocks in LDD that can be brought into a Civil 3d file. If you provide Your typical Planimetric topo lines, symbols, text, etc, and points either in the file or in a separate ASCII file then your client can import them into an updated civil 3d file. You can also export your surface file to an xml file, and They should be able to bring all of that together in a Civil 3d file. It is also a good idea to have your 3d breaklines and surface boundary lines included in the topo file or a separate file.
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Might want to ask them if they’ll accept all the tin files from your LDD. You probably don’t want to shell out for C3D just for this one project.
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It is a completely different software. Do not even attempt to pass off LDD data as Civil3d data, it simply does not work in any efficient way, shape or form. As Jered has pointed out a few minor workarounds but in the end they don’t really work.
If I am the end consumer and have a contract with you to supply a Civil3d drawing, supply a Civil3d drawing.
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Generally I don’t work for people who tell me what methods or tools I need to use. When I did work for a company that had a policy about requests for certain software it was always that the client would pay a premium for that request. In other words, you can have whatever you want as long as you pay. So, if the client demanded a certain software or version, I would say “…we’ve got that.” and it was added to the fee.
A topographic survey is a model surface that illustrates land features and where calculations can be made. I’m sure that there are any number of software programs that can accomplish that. I think it is foolish to demand some brand loyalty in order to work for someone unless that are paying the bill.
What if this foolish concept were to extend to what car you drive to work, what type of data collection computer you are using or what survey instrument you used. I would be more concerned with how well the project data was produced. We have acceptance criteria, but, we don’t dictate methods for our contractors.
Historic Boundaries and Conservation Efforts -
I’m asked for a proposal for topo delivered in Civil 3D format. Is that different from the 2007 LDD I use?
It’s about as different as black and white TV from the 1950’s verses the 2019 4K UHD TV.
You can do the work with LDD and get it to work in C3D but it would take some work (CAD voodoo) and you will never be able to work with the files once they are updated to C3D.
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I’m asked for a proposal for topo delivered in Civil 3D format. Is that different from the 2007 LDD I use?
It is. But there are tools in C3d to facilitate conversion from LDT to C3d. It’s not too difficult. I’m sure you could find someone here that would do the conversion for about 2 hours worth of office time.
Going the other way would be much more difficult.
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Generally I don’t work for people who tell me what methods or tools I need to use. When I did work for a company that had a policy about requests for certain software it was always that the client would pay a premium for that request. In other words, you can have whatever you want as long as you pay. So, if the client demanded a certain software or version, I would say “…we’ve got that.” and it was added to the fee.
A topographic survey is a model surface that illustrates land features and where calculations can be made. I’m sure that there are any number of software programs that can accomplish that. I think it is foolish to demand some brand loyalty in order to work for someone unless that are paying the bill.
What if this foolish concept were to extend to what car you drive to work, what type of data collection computer you are using or what survey instrument you used. I would be more concerned with how well the project data was produced. We have acceptance criteria, but, we don’t dictate methods for our contractors.
I’ll pay for your flight out and put you up at the Ritz if you can convince all my competitors to adopt this philosophy. It would secure my future for a good long while if you were successful.
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That is really the problem. Software developers need to make money so they constantly tweak little things here and there. Your competitors bow their head and so must you. The software developers are the only winners. Why else would you continually upgrade your software if it were not for the image you portray to your client and to keep up with your competitors?
In my agency we used method based specifications and have switched the focus to acceptance based specifications. Because hiring professional contractors and limiting them to how you expect them to perform their task is not a very enlightened way of thinking. If I am better at deciding how you should do your job then why didn’t I do it myself in the first place?
Acceptance means the end product meets the specification no matter the method.
Historic Boundaries and Conservation Efforts -
And if I tailor my method to make my end user’s job easier is that not providing the highest level of service I can? In the case of the OP it appears the software platform is part of the specification. If you’re going to do the type of work that requires you to be part of a team then making decisions about your process and end product that help your other team members is what’s going to get you picked for the next team. That concept is universal in my mind.
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As I said in my previous example, if the software is part of the specification then it is part of the fee.
Historic Boundaries and Conservation Efforts -
Software costs are built into everyone’s fee, or at least they should be. C3D isn’t some exotic or obscure project specific software. It’s one of the, call it 4 for argument’s sake, modern versions of what the design world uses day in and day out. It’s also not something you can just buy a 3 month subscription of to use for a one-off project and believe you’ll be any kind of successful delivering on. Thinking it’s as simple as adding $xxx as a line item on top of your base fee to cover the costs of a C3D subscription coming up from LDD 2007 is horrible advise. Most likely you’ll lose the project out of hand because what Client thinks they should pay for an industry standard software platform? Worse yet you’ll win the work then realize you’re screwed because LDD to C3D is like Windows 3.1 to Windows 10; there’s a monitor and a mouse and “L” still draws a line.
I appreciate and acknowledge that no one likes to be told what their product should look like or what form it should come in. Blockbuster and Hollywood Video must have had the same feelings when their customers said “this internet thing is cool, wouldn’t it be awesome if I could stream these movies on my computer”…
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In reference to the OP, one could argue that “Civil 3D format” is a misnomer, as the “spit out” from Civil 3D is .dwg format. I’ve no idea whether LDD “spits out” .dwg format. But if you are just required to produce a DTM, then 3D faces and/or contours as 2D polylines with elevations, in .dwg format, could be (should be – as that’s all we spit out to other software) all that is required.
We’ve been running AutoCAD Civil3D since 2005, from which time we’ve had it as a perpetual licence (under Infrastructure Design Suite (IDS)). Finally this year we’ve capitulated and forfeited that to switch to AEC (Archetecture, Engineering and Construction) Collection, which includes Civil3D and a lot of other “goodies” that are necessary for the land-developer-consultant – goodies that have been squeezed out of the IDS, or are no longer stand alone add-ons – like vehicle tracking and drone photo processing (ReCap). The AEC also has Revit, which is a cracker for architectural design (but ironically if you want to connect Civil 3D to Revit, you need to pay for an add-on!).
I see now also that the original correct name for Civil 3D, i.e “AutoCAD Civil3D” will now have the AutoCAD bit dropped, so it is just now “Civil 3D”. I think I read that this was to reflect that “it isn’t really AutoCAD”. However, I note that Civil 3D through the years (we now use v2019) IMHO hasn’t really changed from its beginning (v2005, I think), and as I always say it’s just AutoCAD with a whole lotta utilities to automate what you could “manually” do in AutoCAD, and if you can run AutoCAD, you are at least half way there to running Civil 3D.
On a final note, I’m past (passed (sp)) the apogee of my career, with a lot of regrets regarding the way the wind has blown, but I’m glad that I’ve spent the last 10 years or more with a piece of software (she’s been a hell road at times, especially the dark ages pre v2011 and pre 64-bit) that is likely to be around “unchanged” for 10 years more so that I can easily step in and out, and if I mention Civil 3D in years to come, it won’t be received with a glazed look and the sound of crickets.
(By the way, Autodesk, you can reach out to me with a free chariot and boat, anytime).
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Thanks for all the input.
My potential client is a very large engineering and design corp. I told them what I do, they say that’s OK, and I will put it in my proposal which will be sent in a few minutes. In my ignorance, I can’t understand how contour lines, a TIN, breaklines, borderline and ascii points in AutoCads’s .dwg format can’t be used in AutoCAD’s newer software. What would be missing? If the software can’t be used to design a project from what I do, there’s something wrong with it.
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I knew this would be the eventual outcome. That’s why I didn’t respond originally. Here’s how the rest of this will play out:
The person you communicated with regarding this doesn’t understand a lick of AutoCAD or Civil 3D or any software you use. He’s not going to tell you this, so he just says “Sure, that’s fine. Send us a proposal!”
You’ll win the job, do excellent work, and transmit your files to the very large engineering and design corporation.
The files will eventually wind up being routed to somebody like me (SLM) to begin preparing construction drawings. SLM will complain to their supervisor about the added work involved because the files are not native C3D files. SLM will keep complaining and reminding the supervisor until told to do the best they can with what they have.
The design portion of the project will have overruns.
When asked to justify the overruns, SLM will remind their supervisor that extra time was spent dealing with the non native C3D files.
Supervisor will ask SLM if wording can be included in the contract to specify that the work received needs to be in C3D format. SLM will say, yes, language like that can and should be included.
The language will be included in the next contract.
The next subconsultant will ask a person at the very large engineering and design corporation with no knowledge of how projects work if it’s okay to perform the work in alternative software.
Rinse and repeat. Happens all the time. Welcome to my world.
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wow bob that is spot on! don’t forget that mid level manager (MLM) selling this work will berate SLM for the overruns on their project that will affect the year end metrics for MLM and his bonus. And MLM will continue to hire LDD because his price is cheaper owing a lot to the fact that he is using antiquated software.
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Thanks for all the input.
My potential client is a very large engineering and design corp. I told them what I do, they say that’s OK, and I will put it in my proposal which will be sent in a few minutes. In my ignorance, I can’t understand how contour lines, a TIN, breaklines, borderline and ascii points in AutoCads’s .dwg format can’t be used in AutoCAD’s newer software. What would be missing? If the software can’t be used to design a project from what I do, there’s something wrong with it.
They can be. With some work. By somebody high enough up the
food chainorg chart to understand what the raw material is and what the design team needs to work with. In other words, if you deliver LDT somebody at their end is going to mess with it, alter it, and something you did not produce – but will be fully responsible for – will be used in the design.Don’t worry, everything will be fine. They have a person who can handle this, and that person really cares about your reputation.
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I know I will sound like anyone else that thinks that whatever they don’t know about can’t be all that difficult. But if possible, I’d like to understand more.
With Civil 3D you create a project from a prototype or template?
You create a drawing from a template? Maybe there is no drawing.
You add or input information from external sources? Data Collector ? My obsolete .dwg file elements? Surely you can use a variety of sources.
What am I missing?
I have experienced issues going back and forth with microstation. Is the LDD / Civil 3D difference something like that?
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With C3d, everything is in the dwg file. The DTM, the point database, the alignments – the whole schmeer – is in the dwg file. Some will point out that there is also a Survey database, but final deliverables will not include that.
Naturally, you can export xml’s and ascii files, and import them.
The appearance of everything is driven by “styles”. There are a zillion styles to be set up. Once you set them up to your satisfaction in a template you don’t have to mess with them. So using templates is a must. There is no project prototype because there is no project like there is in LDT.
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I knew this would be the eventual outcome. That’s why I didn’t respond originally. Here’s how the rest of this will play out:
The person you communicated with regarding this doesn’t understand a lick of AutoCAD or Civil 3D or any software you use. He’s not going to tell you this, so he just says “Sure, that’s fine. Send us a proposal!”
You’ll win the job, do excellent work, and transmit your files to the very large engineering and design corporation.
The files will eventually wind up being routed to somebody like me (SLM) to begin preparing construction drawings. SLM will complain to their supervisor about the added work involved because the files are not native C3D files. SLM will keep complaining and reminding the supervisor until told to do the best they can with what they have.
The design portion of the project will have overruns.
When asked to justify the overruns, SLM will remind their supervisor that extra time was spent dealing with the non native C3D files.
Supervisor will ask SLM if wording can be included in the contract to specify that the work received needs to be in C3D format. SLM will say, yes, language like that can and should be included.
The language will be included in the next contract.
The next subconsultant will ask a person at the very large engineering and design corporation with no knowledge of how projects work if it’s okay to perform the work in alternative software.
Rinse and repeat. Happens all the time. Welcome to my world.
No offense but that sounds like a poorly managed company. Electronic deliverable are more important now than ever before. We have learned from our mistakes. Nothing like receiving an LDD drawing in international feet and xrefing it into a US survey foot design drawing. What could possibly go wrong?
I guess that’s one reason i never worked for a large corporation. You call here with a question about electronic deliverables I can guarantee you the engineer will pass them straight through to me. Granted, we do our own survey work so this is rarely a situation we find ourselves in but it has happened.
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Poor to middling management is way more common than good management. It’s the Peter Principle at work. People rise to the top of an AEC organization because they are good technicians, not because they are good managers.
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