Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Strictly Surveying › As usual, Kent can only argue his case if he changes the
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As usual, Kent can only argue his case if he changes the
Keith replied 14 years, 1 month ago 20 Members · 154 Replies
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Reference Material needed
> What is the problem with furnishing us all with reference material that supports an instrument line forever.
I take it that Keith evidently doesn’t realize that what he’s asking is why when land is conveyed in fee simple it remains so. :>
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Refernce material
> You are good at insults, but your reference material sucks.
Well, you might as well claim that when a deed calls for a a parcel to be in the shape of a circle that it should be laid out in the shape of a square because there is nothing in the BLM manual that says otherwise. :>
I mean, an actual surveyor doesn’t need the manual to know that the words and phrases used in a conveyance are commonly understood to have their usual and ordinary meanings unless it is clear that a technical one or some other sense is intended.
Now a person could claim that the language of the 2009 BLM manual means that surveyors in PLSSia don’t know the difference between a straight line and a rhumb line. He could claim that and I for one would not dispute the proposition since it is amply supported by the definitions of the new manual. Everywhere else outside of PLSSia however, your mileage will vary considerably.
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The bottom line to this discussion for those who do not
> agree with the Manual section that I have quoted, is to then come up with legitimate survey reference material or heaven forbid, a court case to show the fallacy of the Manual.
>
> Would that not seem appropriate?Uh, no. If some BLM employees were to stick a section in some future manual stating that the Sun rises in the West, will that make it so in reality? I can understand, though, how someone who spent most of his career enforcing whatever he thought a previous edition of the manual said would be more inclined to continue that habit.
In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if in his idle time he were to hang around, say, surveyors’ internet forums and argue against the idea that the Sun rises in the East. :>
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Angelo
That looks like a park that I saw on Anthony Bourdain the other day. Is there a badass burger hut there or something? Folks supposedly line up for a while in NYC to eat there day after day.
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If this is a surveying thread then I’m switching to P&R….
hey Wendell, maybe we need a ‘Bitchin & Moanin’ catagory?
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Angelo
No, this is a park in Florence, Italy. We went to Italy two years ago, and France last year. Every city we visited had carousels in their parks. Even small parks have little eight or ten seat carousels.
I didn’t see the Bourdain episode, but sounds like you are probably referring to the Shake Shack, which sits in Madison Square Park in Midtown Manhattan, Fifth Avenue and East 23rd Street. It’s run by Danny Meyer (and his restaurant company), who have some of the most popular moderate to high-priced restaurants in the City.
They have a Shake Shack in Citifield (the Mets home stadium), and just opened a new branch at the new Intercontinental Hotel Times Square (a very well surveyed building, I might add…..). There are six altogether, with one in Miami’s South beach area. They serve shakes, burgers, hot dogs, fries and other specialty items (even a cool desert for your dog!!!).
Each place has lines out the door at all hours…..how good can a milkshake be?
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Repeat……………..
“What is the problem with furnishing us all with reference material that supports an instrument line forever.”
Insults only show your lack of ability to answer the questions.
Keith
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“Junior monument” defined
“Monument found 1.52 ft. North of true line”, if it is, would be a starter. :>”
This is a good place to start from; If in fact you are a surveyor that only is involved in city lots and blocks, and your longest line is 150 ft., then this found monument that is off your line by 1.52 ft. would ordinarily be rejected without any more consideration.
But in the world of PLSS when miles of line are being retraced/resurveyed and you come upon this monument that is 1.52 ft. off the one mile line that is being resurveyed and there is a fence coming into it, you need to take a good look at it. The first fact to consider is talking to the landowners about the monument and you find out that it was set by a county surveyor 20 some years ago, both landowners have accepted it, fences built to it and it is considered their boundary line. The land is farmed up to that fence. The landowners can recall when the county surveyor was there and the father of one land owner even helped in running this “junior survey”. Now, is that monument accepted as the boundary line or not?
Not in Kent’s world, but is directly in line with the Manual section that I have quoted.
Keith
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Private land surveyor license
“I think what Keith meant was that people who actually hold licenses to survey are expected to make judgments about how to treat some types of errors that they find. :>”
This only shows Kent’s ignorance in the land surveyor category.
He obviously does not know that a private survey license is one way to become qualified to be a land surveyor under 1373 series of the Office of Personnel Management. See BLM Land Surveyor qualifications
Keith
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The Carousel is Back!
Your interest is in merry-go-rounds and not basic land survey issues?
Try keeping up.
Keith
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THE LAW
In Texas, the occupation line in place and unchallenged by the owners for 5 yrs is the legal line and the law does not recognize any control by the description.
Go to http://recenter.tamu.edu fot he real information and forget about the clown mcmillan’s ramblings. He couldn’t find a legal boundary if he tore his pants climbing over it.
Richard Schaut
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That wasn’t an insult :>
> Insults only show your lack of ability to answer the questions.
Actually, that wasn’t an insult. What you’re asking is why the description of an estate in land is determined by the original conveyance, why it doesn’t necessarily change with the arrival of every surveyor for centuries thereafter.
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Keith
I answered, in a courteous fashion, a question posed by a fellow surveyor. Something you and Kent seem quite unable to accomplish with each other.
Actually, if you are curious as to the the carousel, I use them to point out how childish the back and forth between you and Kent has become. The arguments are literally like going around and around to no great purpose, other than, perhaps, your own amusement.
You both accomplish nothing, and make yourselves look foolish in doing so.
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Maybe Kent just should
Post his reference material where it states that bearings and distances always are ranked higher in evidence than monuments? This would prove your statements as being true.
How about it Kent?
Keith
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Angelo
So you really think this exercise in discussing survey issues is a waste of time on this survey board.
Tell us, what is your opinion on bearings and distances ranking higher than monuments. I am sure you can understand the arguments really come down to this.
Hmmmm.
Keith
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Maybe Kent just should
> Post his reference material where it states that bearings and distances always are ranked higher in evidence than monuments? This would prove your statements as being true.
>
>
> How about it Kent?I’m sorry, Keith, as Angelo has reminded me, I make the mistake of thinking that you’re actually understanding the issue. Obviously I was wrong to do so.
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I can’t speak for Angelo
But around these here parts the following is pretty much settled law
“…inasmuch as the general rules as to preferences are merely guides for ascertaining the intention of the parties. Thus, while it is a general rule that calls in a deed ordinarily prevail over courses and distances, this rule is not applied if it defeats the manifest intention of the parties.”
-Zawatsky Co. v. Feldman Corp., 100 A. 2d 269 – Md: Court of Appeals 1953
Since, in most cases, it would be obvious that a grantor doesn’t intend to convey land he doesn’t own (when the junior monument crosses the senior line)And there is a presumption at law that, generally, the grantor doesn’t intend to retain a small strip of land (when the junior monument falls short of the senior line)
11 C.J.S. BOUNDARIES Section 112
Presumptions
There is an inference that a grantee is entitled only to the land described within the limits of the boundaries in the deed, (Tex. – Town of Refugio v. Straunch, 29 S.W.2d 1041) but there is also a presumption that the grantor did not intend to retain a narrow strip along an outside line. (W.Va. – United Fuel Gas Co. v. Townsend, 139 S.E. 856)
Then treating the junior monument as controlling solely for direction (in the absence of facts leading to estoppel, such as the testimony of both landowners to an agreement) effectuates the intent of the grantor to a greater extent that holding the junior monument.
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Thank you James
Thanks for posting your reference cites, but maybe this needs more explanation:
“Then treating the junior monument as controlling solely for direction (in the absence of facts leading to estoppel, such as the testimony of both landowners to an agreement) effectuates the intent of the grantor to a greater extent that holding the junior monument.”
I do of course notice the statements; ““…inasmuch as the general rules as to preferences are merely guides for ascertaining the intention of the parties. Thus, while it is a general rule that calls in a deed ordinarily prevail over courses and distances, this rule is not applied if it defeats the manifest intention of the parties.” Sort of like, bearings and distances do not hold over monuments??
And of course the result of not accepting monuments will always give the result of overlaps and or gaps. Right? the huge majority of junior survey monuments will not fall on Kent’s exact instrument line.
Keith
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