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As usual, Kent can only argue his case if he changes the
Keith replied 14 years, 1 month ago 20 Members · 154 Replies
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Gunter
This is babbling; If the prior senior monuments are still there, and there’s a junior monument that’s off the line, then it’s just one of two things – if it’s a minor blunder, then the junior monument should be considered to be “on line” but shown with whatever offset. No kink
Well lets see now, it is “on line” but “off line with an offset”
That is Democrat Kerry rationale.
SOMEBODY—-ANYBODY References????
Keith
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“Junior monument” defined
> A land surveyor’s judgement will determine if the subsequent junior monument is acceptable or not.
At this point, a definition will probably clarify the issue. As Keith uses the non-standard term “junior monument” what he really means is:
A survey marker placed by a surveyor hired by a landowner whose title is junior to that of the adjoining owner, i.e. left the common source subsequently to the grant by which the adjoiner’s right of possession originated. In other words, the “junior monument” is something that may be placed without the adjoining owner of the senior tract requesting it, relying upon it, or even knowing about it.
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Jack
> A land surveyor’s judgement will determine if the subsequent junior monument is acceptable or not.
I think what Keith meant was that people who actually hold licenses to survey are expected to make judgments about how to treat some types of errors that they find. :>
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Keith, look at the language in the Manual
Keith, I think you are the one babbling here.
Have you provided any reference saying that the surveyor has license or mandate to do anything other than retracement and setting junior monuments ON the senior line?
For them creating gaps?
You have not.
The section of the manual that you cited does not support this.
Junior-Senior Corners
7-23. This situation exists where one set of corners was established for one side of the line, and a second set of corners was established for the other side of the of the same line in the course of a later resurvey or retracement (figure 7-4).
The line is regarded as having been fixed in position by the senior survey and subsequent dependent resurveys or retracements. If both sets of corners are recovered, a junior survey,if it was established in the course of an obvious careful resurvey or retracement, reporting the most recent measurement of the line, will be used for alinement of the line and for control in restoring a lost senior corner of the line
The manual says that it’s stipulated on the surveyor retracing or resurveying the line. If the junior monument he’s set is off the line, if it creates any significant kink or gap, then obviously he has not satisfied that stipulation, and as such, the junior corner is not in accordance with the manual. It doesn’t get any simpler than that. To reiterate, significant kinks or gaps clearly show evidence that the junior corner set did not comply with the language from the manual that you yourself posted.You on the other hand seem to be fine with having surveyors creating significant gaps and kinks, in conflict and contradiction with the manual, as I read it.
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What does obvious careful resurvey or retracement mean
You’re NOT repeating what the Manual says. You are saying gaps and kinks are fine.
The manual says setting the junior monument should be based on an obvious careful resurvey or retracement of the senior line.
If the surveyor that set the junior monument was so far off the line that he’s creating significant kinks or gaps, then to pretty much anyone on this board, it would seem that whatever resurvey or retracement was sloppy, and not be the obvious careful resurvey or retracement.
It should also be the assumption that the intent was that the junior monument be on line, and not to kink or create gaps.
Obvious to anybody but Keith, it would seem.
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“Junior monument” in the new manual?
> Kent keeps implying that I am out there alone in my opinions, but as everybody else can understand, I am repeating what the Manual is saying.
Actually, is there any part of the new manual that uses the phrase “junior monument”? Hmmm?
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You guys either resolve this kinky issue or get a room for GAWD’S sakes!
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Hey, it’s Keith’s “issue”, not mine
> You guys either resolve this kinky issue …
Hey, talk to Keith. As far as I’m concerned it’s a non-issue. Boundaries originally created as straight lines remain straight until some fact set appears that would warrant holding that the boundary had been established in some other location. Just because some careless surveyor hired by an adjoining owner can’t run a transit line doesn’t ordinarily impair the property rights of the neighbor. End of report.
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Kent
That’s a very succinct way of putting it. As I said in the previous thread on this subject a couple of days ago, the apples and oranges part of the argument is that a government survey can put all the kinks they want in the lines between their own sections. Some yahoo driving a stake intended to be on a senior private property line doesn’t automatically create a kink until such time as the stake is acquiesced to or agreed to in some legal fashion by the adjoining property owners. That still will not make an off-line stake define an original section line referred to in a private property conveyance, but it may define a boundary line.
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“Junior monument” defined
My term “junior monument” is not a real baffling term to most, but maybe to Kent it is, since they really cannot exist.
I take it as being a monument in the context of the following The line is regarded as having been fixed in position by the senior survey and subsequent dependent resurveys or retracements. If both sets of corners are recovered, a junior survey,if it was established in the course of an obvious careful resurvey or retracement, reporting the most recent measurement of the line, will be used for alinement of the line and for control in restoring a lost senior corner of the line.
Really complicated stuff.
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Jack
And of course this shows Kent’s opinion of BLM land surveyors.
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Dave
This is land surveying 101 and nothing kinky about it.
Keith
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“Junior monument” defined
> My term “junior monument” is not a real baffling term to most, but maybe to Kent it is, since they really cannot exist.
Well, if it is a term in common use in PLSSia, I’m sure you can point to an instance of it in the new manual, right?
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Jack
> And of course this shows Kent’s opinion of BLM land surveyors.
Actually, what it shows is his opinion of retired desk jockeys who never had much actual experience surveying. :>
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The bottom line to this discussion for those who do not
agree with the Manual section that I have quoted, is to then come up with legitimate survey reference material or heaven forbid, a court case to show the fallacy of the Manual.
Would that not seem appropriate?
Keith
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Kent
You are good at insults, but your reference material sucks.
Keith
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Steve
You know better than this!
Would you guess that the reason for resurveys by BLM are generally to define the boundaries between private and federal land.
I hope your statement above is really not your interpretation of the quoted section from the Manual?
Do you really think that I have any doubt about the legality of the 1/16 sec. corners that I have personally set and I know darned well they are not set with the present accuracy of Kent’s instrument line.
Those 1/16 sec. cor. monuments would clearly be defined as junior corners in the junior survey as stated in the Manual. Would you actually think that the section lines do not go through those 1/16 sec. corners now?
Keith
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“Junior monument” defined
I wonder what a monument of a “junior survey” would be called?
Gosh….tough one.
Keith
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Reference Material needed
What is the problem with furnishing us all with reference material that supports an instrument line forever.
Keith
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“Junior monument” defined
> I wonder what a monument of a “junior survey” would be called?
“Monument found 1.52 ft. North of true line”, if it is, would be a starter. :>
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