Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Business, Finance & Legal › Property boundary dispute with lawyers involved
Property boundary dispute with lawyers involved
Posted by wildwheel on January 13, 2020 at 3:48 amIt seems that when lawyers are involved with a boundary dispute the lawyers advise denying access to neighboring property.
For example, say the client and neighbor dispute their property boundary. Client and neighbor then hire lawyers and aren’t allowed to communicate directly. Then client requests a survey. We show up to survey and are confronted by neighbor. Initially the neighbor is cordial, understanding of our process and has no issues with our presence. However, after talking to their lawyer are advised to deny us access to their (neighboring) property.
I am a green surveyor with ~1.5yr of experience, but this situation has happened multiple times. From my understanding of the surveying profession, we aren’t advocates for anyone (client or neighbor) and the goal is to establish the boundary as accurately as possible. Why lawyers act to delay the surveying process seems obvious, they want to drag out the process long as possible and get more money.
It irks me that lawyers attempt to obfuscate the establishment of property boundary. Why don’t surveyors get called first, before lawyers, to mediate this type of boundary issue?
MightyMoe replied 4 years ago 24 Members · 36 Replies- 36 Replies
You must be in one of THOSE states where surveyors do not have a right of entry law working for them. That is sad.
Before using right-to-entry legislation in your state and using it to enter private property, I suggest that you read that law very closely. Some of those laws have some vague or strange exceptions. Also, those laws will not protect a law-abiding surveyor from gunshot wounds, dented trucks, or dog bites. Our rule at the office was always, “Use right-to-entry only on non-contentious work, and if someone doesn’t want you on their land, don’t go.”
Lawyer probably doesn’t want his client to reveal damaging information to you or by allowing your to work be spun by the lawyer on your side that they accepted your work–or any infinite list of negatives they have to guard against.
The noble goal of non-advocacy can get gray when the surveyor for the other side assaults your integrity and tries to prove that you are incompetent, and the lawyer on his side files a motion to have you thrown out out of court for incompetence or error. Although you might maintain objectivity and non-advocacy for the survey concepts, you will likely become a huge advocate for yourself and your own work, and you might stay up 24/7 doing it. You even have to do that for work that you have done that is in fact positively correct. They don’t roll over in court like when Ironsides cross examines them on TV. They always come out swinging and looking for ways to prove their case no matter what and often go down swinging like that rabbit on “In Search of the Holy Grail.”
Think hard before you take on a seriously disputed case and consider referring it if it worries you.
I have a very long list of things about lawyers that irks me…
Last one I did like that both sets of attorneys followed me around, watching everything I did. Wasn’t that fun.
There are so many Lawyers. I’ve seen crews of them. Hell there were 6 in the room and at least 5 or 6 on the phone at a deposition. They can appear or just observe too you know.
I think once the Lawyers are involved everything goes through them. If I couldn’t do the Survey properly because of denial of access by one of the parties then I think I would suspend work until the Lawyers work out a deal so that I can finish my survey. No point in flooring the accelerator if you are stuck in the mud.
I did one a few years ago where I knew both sides very well. I also knew both lawyers fairly well. We all had a great time wandering all over 30 acres coming to an agreement on where to set every corner. It worked.
In PLSSia it can be impossible to do certain jobs without being on property not owned by the client. Notifying the owner of said property/properties in advance should be sufficient. If they protest, we can be escorted to where we need to go by law enforcement. Short of killing us, they cannot prevent us from doing our job. It has not been a problem in over four decades of experience.
I recently sat down for a “meeting” with an adjoiner attorney. He is a very experienced lawyer and should have understood my client’s ownership which I had monumented. The adjoiner disputed my clients claim of ownership and this meeting was to “educate” the lawyer why I did what I did. I went through the statutes, court cases and such that covers my position. Frankly, I’m thinking the lawyer understood it all quite well, he possibly only wanted to find out just how well my client understood it, so now there seems to be no problem, go figure.
Surveyors and attorneys have different roles, ours is to protect the public and do a service for our clients, theirs is to advocate for their clients the public can be collateral damage.
Some good points so far. One more point to ponder for the OP.
Calming owners, dogs, homeless folks and the like is a skill. In over 40 years I have never failed to gain access, nor have I been shot, beaten, bit or kicked. A few close calls and a few escorts (the law enforcement kind) at the right time have helped. The thing that really kept me from harm was knowing people.
The ones who are throwing a fit usually fold up like a lawn chair when they are finished. If they are coming at you expressionless without a word head for the truck. Same same for dogs and people.
Good luck, Tom
We always know the names of the adjoiners before leaving the office. Those names are on deeds and tax information usually but mostly I ask my client for that information. I also ask them to contact all the neighbor’s and let them know that I will be visiting. It seems that I am usually surveying for the new guy in the neighborhood, not the old timer. I want to meet the old timer.
Before I leave the truck my partner and I know who is supposed to be who in the neighborhood. Once confronted if you answer with “are you Mr. Johnson?” you (might) have the upper hand. Introduce yourself by name, give them a card, explain that you have read his deed and have a copy of it in the truck if he wants one. In almost all situations Mr. Johnson calmes and wants to talk about your equipment or tell you about when he worked as a surveyor. Let him, he needs to cooperate and you want him to. Ask him how long the fence has been there and who built it? How about that garden?
Rarely will I go where I am not expected. We dress well, drive a clean and well marked rig, and have a general interest in all sorts of things. I am not afraid to sit a spell and talk about dogs, chain hoists or fruit trees.
That all said, most of my work is in an urban setting. Your mileage may vary.
Yeah, even in my short career I’ve always taken the time to chat with clients or the neighbors if approached. The boss might not like it since time is money and all that, but I assume it’s a lot cheaper to talk to people for 10-15 minutes than try to repair a reputation as a trespasser, land thief, etc.
Agree 100 percent. I like to know who the adjoiners are. As you pointed out, it is great to be able to ask that “Are you Mr. Johnson?” when he approaches. It catches them off guard.
I am the boss. That said, I find that these interactions make for more interesting dinner table conversation than coordinate geometry or the truly unpleasant RN issues in the GI department.
I agree with you Daniel, good post.
I can’t understand how or why any surveyor wouldn’t contact the neighbors when surveying properties. Far too many times they have provided essential information in finding evidence, boundaries, monuments, etc. Many retracements require gathering evidence from owners, neighbors, previous owners, etc. “Stealth surveying” seldom works out well for all concerned.
Yes, there are some that seem to waste time, but hey, I charge enough to cover it.
Right of entry exists for when no one is home or no one answers door. Once a homeowners tells you to get off their property, you have no legal recourse. At least in my state
That has worked for me. Uniformed off duty deputy gets extra pay and neighbor figures out i am not that bad.
From our statutes. Note that the surveyor may be delayed a bit but not prevented from completing what must be done. This is critical in PLSSia.
74-7046. (a) A land surveyor, licensed pursuant to article 70 of chapter 74 of the Kansas Statutes Annotated, and amendments thereto, and such surveyor’s authorized agents and employees may enter upon lands, waters and premises of a party who has not requested the survey when it is necessary for the purpose of making a survey. If the licensed surveyor has made a reasonable attempt to notify the person in possession, such entry shall not be deemed a trespass. Upon notice, such person in possession has the right to modify the time and other provisions of the surveyor’s access upon notification to the surveyor, as long as such modifications do not unreasonably restrict completion of the survey. Nothing herein shall change the status of the licensed surveyor as an occupier of land.
(b) While conducting surveys, the licensed surveyor and such surveyor’s authorized agents and employees shall carry proper identification as to such surveyor’s licensure or employment and shall display such identification to anyone upon request.
(c) Neither the landowner nor the person in possession shall be liable for any injury or damage sustained by a licensed surveyor or such surveyor’s authorized agents and employees entering upon such land, water or premises under the provisions of this section, except when such damages and injury were willfully or deliberately caused by the landowner or person in possession.
(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to:
(1) Remove civil liability for actual damage to such lands, waters, premises, crops or personal property;
(2) give the licensed surveyor or such surveyor’s authorized agents and employees the authority to enter any building or structure used as a residence or for storage; and
(3) remove civil or criminal liability for intentional acts of injury or for damages to the surveyor or authorized agents and employees.
One of my favorite anecdotes about hostile neighbors is something I’m sure I read on this website:
A survey crew was merrily working along when a man rode up on a horse with a shotgun crosswise on the saddle. He asked, “Who’s in charge here?”
The party chief said, “You are.”
Bruce, I bet you walked them to total exhaustion.
Log in to reply.