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Questions on the old Geodimeter stations?
Posted by bob james on August 30, 2016 at 2:09 amI hope I don’t get beat up here as I have not read all the rules but I am not a surveyor, only an engineer doing personal projects and a need for a station for certain projects. As such, I cannot afford to jump off the deep end with this investment. I know so might recommend a simple manual model but I like to automated function of robotics.
This search moved me towards some of the Geodimeter units as they seem well designed but VERY limited online regarding resources and information.
I have so basic and borderline ignorant questions I suppose. I am in several tech fields including CNC machining so I can digest coordinates but some of the machine functions confuse me.
1. I see there are a few robotic Geodimeter units floating around. Which are the ones to find and why? I see the 600-610 as most popular. Not sure if the first models were using stepper type drive motors and the 600s have encoder feedback servos? Does that matter? Is there a list of robotic models somewhere?
2. I am a touch lost on communication and language. Seems these older models using a remote target? How does that work? Does the remote target send an RF signal out that the station receiver picks up to home in on the rough target to find it?
3. I have seen a few that come with a handheld radio. Is this used if you don’t use the remote target?
4. Is the station mounted keypad (RU?) a detachable remote device used to capture the points by mounting to the pole or is this what the radio is used for? No remote, no one man point plugging?
5. Is this going to be rather tricky to retrieve the points from such an old machine?
What I am basically doing is geolocating underground utilities as they go in, and mapping for topo work. Fully automated is nice but probably not required. I don’t need a fancy 3D map, just the points and elevations would be helpful.
I know, the thought of “just hire it done” sounds easier but I have enough of this ongoing work to justify buying something, just not new.
bob james replied 8 years ago 7 Members · 17 Replies -
17 Replies
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1. I see there are a few robotic Geodimeter units floating around. Which are the ones to find and why? I see the 600-610 as most popular. Not sure if the first models were using stepper type drive motors and the 600s have encoder feedback servos? Does that matter? Is there a list of robotic models somewhere?
I’ve uploaded a PDF listing specs by model.
2. I am a touch lost on communication and language. Seems these older models using a remote target? How does that work? Does the remote target send an RF signal out that the station receiver picks up to home in on the rough target to find it?
The gun has a tracking unit that locks onto a small diode in the remote target. The 360å¡ has a circular array of LEDs that allow tracking from any angle.
3. I have seen a few that come with a handheld radio. Is this used if you don’t use the remote target?
You need a remote radio for robotic communication. I think the “handheld” (often called the “brick”) can be bypassed if you have the right controller, but I don’t have experience with that. I was able to leave the brick at the tripod and run over a bluetooth connection, though.
4. Is the station mounted keypad (RU?) a detachable remote device used to capture the points by mounting to the pole or is this what the radio is used for? No remote, no one man point plugging
The RPU is the controller used by the operator, but it has no radio capability. You need the brick or a suitable alternative in addition to the RPU.
5. Is this going to be rather tricky to retrieve the points from such an old machine?
It’s been awhile since I’ve used mine, but my recollection is that data communication with a workstation was not difficult.
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WOW! That is a great piece of info there! Thank you!
I gathered more info from the mother ship and understand more of what you are saying. A few more questions to bounce back for confirmation and such.
1. The keyboard or CU is detached from the gun for remote measuring? But the CU has no radio ability so it needs that damn radio unit?
2. You mention the gun locks to a diode and a 360 prism would simply project this diode light at 360. However, for low resolution points, could someone simply aim that gun at any match diode wavelength to obtain topo measurements?
3. So are these radios highly proprietary or matched somehow to the unit in such a way that I cannot find a simple solution for this if a gun does not come with one?
4. You mention fixing this with bluetooth connection. Is this possible with an older unit?All in all, I am trying to determine what the limitations might be on the older units? Are the Geodimeter units still worth owning? Are they too slow for topo mapping? hard to get them to track you?
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1. Yes, the detachable control unit needs an external radio. If it was just a plain old RS232 connection between gun and radio it’d be easy to configure a modern replacement, but my understanding is that the instrument’s internal radio needs to establish communication with the brick in order to go robotic. I’m told that some of the later Trimble controllers (TSC2?) can replace the brick, but I’ve not tried this.
2. In theory, yes. But I suspect that the diode is issuing a modulated signal that the gun uses to authenticate the remote unit. I know that it’s not just a diode in the remote prism, there’s circuitry associated with it.
3. See my response 1 above.
4. Yes, I ran BT with my old 610 and 640. But I had to hang the brick on the tripod and then cable it to a BT radio. It was a little kludgy, but it worked. I used a DC50 data collector, which supported the BT connection.
Are the old ones worth owning? If you can pick one up cheap enough and don’t mind putting up with the lower turning speed, complicated cabling and heavy power drain. Tracking is good, I never had a complaint about that. The maintenance cost isn’t trivial; the internal batteries need to be replaced every 5 years or so, and the last time I had it done it cost me $1,300.00.
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Jim, about those internal batteries. I sure hope that does not mean battery backup? Like flash memory? Like anytime those batteries come out, the software must be reloaded?
Are there settings and parameters as such in the CNC world? I know when batteries go flat in our machines, it means a huge PITA for us.
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Update. I dug into that battery deal more and it sure looks like A), Trimble and taught all dealers to scare the crap out of all users so they spend a grand on 5 bucks in batteries. B), the scare tactic worked and seems very few people will touch theirs. Probably with some decent reason if Trimble wants to guard the “wares” forever on decades old machines.
In the CNC world, we get alarms for main batteries and we replace them while machines are running. I see now that the Geodimeters have soldered batteries. No biggy really to keep the machine running while they are desoldered really BUT it also seems like there are alarms set and such that cannot be reset because certain codes and key sequences are not out there I guess.
I notice on the Trimble site, there is some firmware available but pure binary files and no instruction sheet on loading and I assume there will be a sequence and probably a basic loader program.
Its all in the air what is guarded and what can be patched up. I don’t see loss of calibrations or saved points as the end of the world if that stuff can and should be recorded and re-entered after a battery swap anyway. BUT, if the machine totally forgets it name and why it was born, that would mean the software is all volatile for some crazy reason.
With CNC equipment, the controls are setup based on a very long list of parameters settings but those values are shipped with a machine and can be re-entered or streamed back to a machine. I just need to learn more about these deals. Sad, I was pretty pumped about getting one but seems like manufacturers have a way of obsoleting good equipment just to make more cash. Maybe I can see how personable Trimble might be on the phone.
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Have fun calling Trimble without a service subscription.
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I would recommend renting a modern robot from a dealer. It would give you some hands on experience with the instruments. It would help you build a relationship with a dealer. They often get old equipment on trade. That relationship may lead you to the proper equipment. I love my Geodimeter, but it’s certainly not “intuitive” to get the pattern down, and the Swedish programming, while elegant, would be considered very user un-friendly in today’s “windows” interface style.
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Andy,
You still using Ole #49? Figured it was retired by now.
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eddycreek, post: 388672, member: 501 wrote: Andy,
You still using Ole #49? Figured it was retired by now.
I’m running an S6 day to day… but I couldn’t part with Ole #49! She’s still here on well deserved rest.
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bob james, post: 388635, member: 12050 wrote: No biggy really to keep the machine running while they are desoldered
It’s kind of a biggy. Robotic total stations are designed to have a very compact form, which means that service accessibility takes a back seat to form factor. I’m comfortable replacing the batteries in my klunky old GPS receivers, but the one time I opened a total station to look into performing the same task, I did a big *gulp* and quietly closed it up again. And that one wasn’t even robotic.
bob james, post: 388635, member: 12050 wrote: BUT, if the machine totally forgets it name and why it was born, that would mean the software is all volatile for some crazy reason.
I can only guess at the reason; maybe they knew that firmware updates would be needed multiple times over the life of the instrument, and decided that relying on battery-maintained RAM was preferable to EPROM or similar nonvolatile memory. But the fact is that if you lose the internal batteries, you lose the firmware. I can reload the firmware in my old GPS receivers, but I’ve never seen the firmware loader for Geodimeter guns in the wild.
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The idea of spending so much time and effort to DIY some workarounds on an instrument that has been so carefully designed and created actually boggles my mind. If you want to cobble something together with diodes and radios or crack that thing open to solder on the batteries, PLEASE, for the love of all things holy in the world of surveying DO NOT DO THAT TO A GEODIMETER!!
I know nothing of your technical skills, so maybe this whole experiment would be an amazing success…. BUT, I deduce from your questions, that you know next to nothing about the complexities of a robotic survey instrument. If that deduction is incorrect, I apologize in advance. -
“I can only guess at the reason; maybe they knew that firmware updates would be needed multiple times over the life of the instrument, and decided that relying on battery-maintained RAM was preferable to EPROM or similar nonvolatile memory. But the fact is that if you lose the internal batteries, you lose the firmware. I can reload the firmware in my old GPS receivers, but I’ve never seen the firmware loader for Geodimeter guns in the wild.”
Jim, I think because the Geodimeter programming was so efficient, it wouldn’t take much to simply reload it at service. My Bergrstrand edition came with every program they created. The file sizes are amazingly small (due to limited storage capacity in the old days) compared to today’s bloated windows based monsters.
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I appreciate the responses. I am curious if all brands seem to follow this type of service or lack there of? It might be worth looks at something else, like Topcon units?
As to my experiences, I realize I am new here but I do board level PCB repairs commonly and my latest was 46 pin DIP microcontroller in a Ford ECM that was considered unserviceable. I can do the batteries but I guess it would come down to the firmware. Usually there is a designed protocol to invoke the reload as well as the actual firmware file in proper format.
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Jim Frame, post: 388630, member: 10 wrote: The maintenance cost isn’t trivial; the internal batteries need to be replaced every 5 years or so, and the last time I had it done it cost me $1,300.00.
you got spanked, I just payed $693 with shipping back from Precision Midwest and its every three years (recommended). Only problem was they had to find a DOS machine to reload the internal programs back on the gun.
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James Vianna, post: 388683, member: 120 wrote: you got spanked, I just payed $693
$1,300 may have included general service — this was about 7 years ago, and my memory is a little vague — so the battery replacement on its own would likely have been more in line with the number you quoted.
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James Vianna, post: 388683, member: 120 wrote: you got spanked, I just payed $693 with shipping back from Precision Midwest and its every three years (recommended). Only problem was they had to find a DOS machine to reload the internal programs back on the gun.
I’m just about to get new batteries in our GDM640 and the UK cost is about half that. If you can find a dealer to keep them running they were built like tanks. I still have two GDM440’s we keep for dirty jobs where the instrument might be at risk. (Three yearly service is a good insurance).
With reference to the earlier comment on the flashing diode in the remote targets – Yes, they are modulated. I had the same thoughts when they first came out and rapidly thought better of it. As I recall there is a double height peak on the oscilloscope around every 160 cycles.
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Well, I found out that any older DOS based stations are pretty much hosed if they need reloaded. Trimble was very guarded in providing the firmware to dealers. If I found one for a song that worked, I would need to check the battery replacement procedure to maintain memory because the risk is so high of a total loss.
Chris, I am curious in regards to the LED targets. Is this flash sequence proprietary to Geodimeter such that I cannot even buy a 360* active target to use? I would have to use only the unit’s provided target?
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