Sad indeed.?ÿ I think concerned government agencies will have to throw real money at this problem.?ÿ If you are good at math and science, you stand to make 2-3 times as much money by going into software engineering.?ÿ Other less-related fields also out-compete us for the top minds who are willing to grind through the years of advanced education (medicine, finance, and on and on).?ÿ?ÿ
The paper linked in Mr Hamilton??s original post reminds me of remarks made in this history of the geodetic science program at OSU:
https://earthsciences.osu.edu/sites/default/files/2000_Crossing%20Olentangy%20River_Cloud.pdf
This 34-page paper describes how integral the Cold War was to its success.?ÿ
From the paper:
There is a real push where I work to get everyone enrolled into a graduate level certificate program in geodesy, if one does not already have the formal education.?ÿ The dire situation laid out in this paper has been long coming and is on the forefront of all receiving a paycheck.?ÿ
I don??t know why the link in my previous message doesn??t work. You can search for the paper title ??Crossing the Olentangy River.??ÿ
I am surprised that Jim Collins did not recommend the book he co-wrote with Hofmann-Wellenhof GPS: Theory and Practice ( 1993 ) of course Alfred Leick??s GPS: Satellite Surveying did come out in 1990.?ÿ
We used the Hofmann-Wellenhof text at Penn State Wilkes-Barre 20 years ago.?ÿ It continues to be a great reference and I've been surprised it doesn't show up on more surveyors' shelves.
Lets look at some facts. ?ÿLand Surveyors are great at what they do. But some don??t understand GPS. They assume they have done geodetic work because there crew chief did rtk work.
Which is another thorn the term crew chief and party chief. ?ÿWe don??t have a crew or a party hardly any more. We have one person who goes out with a robot and rtk unit mostly at least what I am seeing lately. Party was a group of people that were performing different task to complete the survey. Like chain-men front or head and rear. Instrument person note keeper rodman. ?ÿAll were on the team or party or crew. ?ÿMentoring took place by the head of the team crew or party. So Party Chief. I got in trouble a lot for calling some of my Marines party chief. ?ÿThe brass said Marines don??t Party its a team chief or a fireteam etc. sorry for the rant. ?ÿ
Many in charge both licensed and other managers are pushed for profit. So someone sIs get gps or whatever latest technology. They say we can??t afford to locate it twice or we can??t afford to do pre planning. So we have coordinates come out and they make it work. Now I know that there are many who have researched and study and instill the knowledge and practices required to achieve good results.?ÿ
But like any thing it takes a true professional to acknowledge his short comings. We live in a time that a position or title has become the buzz word for Leadership. Manager equals leadership. In reality it does not. Just like rtk does not equal geodetic work. But they claim it does. When I read a plat that states true north. My first instinct is to say Did they do astro to the sun or polaris. When its pre gps time. ?ÿOr did they do a magnetic declination adjustment. So land surveyors should be required to understand geodesy period atleast at a basic level. ?ÿMany geodetic methods were employed for both the PLSS and colonial surveys. If we are to follow in the footsteps we should know how to do these. And we should know how to do the same with gps or gnss. And to understand any of this we need to understand geodesy at a basic level. Because the world is not flat. No offense to those flat earthers out there! ?ÿ I am no geodesy expert. But I study it I try to improve my knowledge and understanding and application. ?ÿ
I hope that somehow we have a boom in people here in the USA striving for the knowledge and challenge the standards to push us into discovering things we never new. ?ÿ
@olemanriver?ÿ ?ÿIf you think Dr. Herbert Stoughton was the best you are sure in trouble.
JOHN NOLTON
@john-nolton well one of the best instructors. In the way I had to do the work and was not given my grade but had to earn it. Many professors I witnessed would just give you the grade. ?ÿSome may not like that but it is reality. ?ÿNot saying all are like that but it has been happening at all levels of college. ?ÿEvery subject. ?ÿHe was also well respected by the folks at NGA that use to be DMA. ?ÿ I never surveyed under him just took classes. I took his boundary law 1 and 2 via vhs tape he pre recorded during a lectures. Then was given assignments. I did the work watched the lectures if I had questions I would call. That was online before online. I worked under a man that use to help teach his boundary classes. ?ÿPart time before i worked for him but he helped a bunch as well.?ÿ
no surveyor is best at all. No person has it all. ?ÿSome are great mappers some are great boundary surveyors some geodetic some construction etc.?ÿ
Same with any trade or any profession. ?ÿ?ÿ
Sometimes the best professors are not necessarily the most knowledgeable but rather the best at getting you to learn on your own. I had one very good professor that didn't lecture much but gave a LOT of handouts. Reading them really helped me beyond the textbook.?ÿ?ÿ
What would happen to survey licensing if some specific number of credits in basic geodesy and advanced geodesy were to be required in order to sit for the examination??ÿ
Survey Licensing exists for boundary determination.
I tend to agree, but I do not recall a single legally-related question on the exam I took in 1985, but I did have to calculate an elevation on a vertical curve...
I tend to agree, but I do not recall a single legally-related question on the exam I took in 1985, but I did have to calculate an elevation on a vertical curve...
Essay and verbal examinations are expensive and they are not in vogue right now. The main issue being that it reveals ethnicity, etc to the final gate keepers, which MAY allow a gate keeper to only let people in that are like them in some unwritten way.
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That said, outside of a project and essay and verbal examination, I cannot think of a good way to really test a surveyor.
BUT, the final test should include a boundary issue with supporting documents of some sort, including field work. Then they have to make a boundary determination and make an exhibit and legal description, etc etc.?ÿ
I do not recall a single legally-related question on the exam I took in 1985
I very clearly recall that the Oregon test (1998) included a particular case to be read and and questions about it answered. If you hadn't read the case in advance (and also several other cases that might have been the subject) you were screwed. There was no time to read it afresh.?ÿ ?ÿ
The FS and PS test are loaded with questions of general legal principles.
That said, outside of a project and essay and verbal examination, I cannot think of a good way to really test a surveyor.
BUT, the final test should include a boundary issue with supporting documents of some sort, including field work. Then they have to make a boundary determination and make an exhibit and legal description, etc etc.?ÿ
Agreed. Shouldn't be difficult to hand out a typical survey scenario and evaluate someone on actual survey work.
I for one would be just fine with an oral exam - at minimum an essay exam, because one of the traits of a professional is being able to communicate clearly, both professional opinions and the concepts that underpin their work.
As I understand it, states started dropping essays and oral exams because they were getting sued by people who failed, because it's an easier case to argue than a multiple-choice exam. But people challenge the multiple choice exams too. I have also heard the other, unspoken, reason for dropping essays was because people just flat-out couldn't pass them, so they decided to lower the bar.
Doctors (medical and otherwise) have to pass oral boards. Heck, pilots do too. Shouldn't be that hard for us...
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@john-hamilton 100% agree. Some people are motivators, create the enthusiasm and desire for an individual that has a flame already they just help guide the flame. Some that are very knowledgeable can??t always teach. Its not a right or wrong its just like anything else. Not everyone can be the quarterback or point guard if we may use sports as an analogy. It takes lineman center wide receivers etc. just as in basketball shooting guards forwards etc. ?ÿ
I still believe that most issues can be resolved through leadership. ?ÿThe leader or the one with influence just needs to be utilized to lead the troops. ?ÿHe or She may or may night be in a position of authority. ?ÿBut they are the ones who everyone looks to when things happen good or bad. ?ÿNo doubt geodesist surveyors engineers we have many and very many that are highly intelligent and educated. What is needed is for them to identify the leaders and guide them in the right direction to draw in and motivate those that are out there looking and seeking. ?ÿ
From what I have been told. ?ÿSome of NGS best people were picked up many years ago from farms ranches small towns etc. many who had no formal education in geodetic science. But the scientist saw the ones who were learning and capable of learning so many were sent to formal education which made them even better. ?ÿThats just a way many ways to tackle the issue. One thing I noticed working with highly educated people. They like to clone themselves. What I mean is they like to hire people with the same exact education background and personality. Not bad but a lot can be lost in not getting a different perspective. ?ÿ Now that can go south also. Being to diversified can lead to no mastery skills as well. Have to get the teeter totter to balance out. ?ÿ
was it nasser that stated surveying is an art and science. ?ÿOne of my old bosses you to say Surveyors are a jack of all trades and master of none. ?ÿHe said we dig we map we locate we use all sorts of trade skills to get the job done. We were laying out anchor bolts we had built a template with a sheet of plywood and piano wire. ?ÿSo we could align it and mark all the spots for anchors. ?ÿ
