When I started in the 90’s now mind you I was going to school at night a technical school. My LS my PC would teach us the survey math . I caught on to most pretty quickly in the field. I was solving vertical curves and figuring the hi low station before I ever got to that point in elementary surveying class. I actually had a harder time solving it the classroom way vs the way I was taught in the field. Both ways got the same answer just very academic in the classroom.
Now I never have finished my actual degree. Never been in one location at a younger age long enough that a had a 4 year degree program. There are only 2 times in my life that I actually took a full class load one for one semester when I graduated high school the other for a semester during the big recession. All others were taking a class here and there and working full time. I have no issues with a degree. I learned a lot in the 144 college credits I have. Some at the masters level . I just took what I wanted to learn. Road and bridge classes. Soils surveying boundary law. Etc. lots of geomatics beside just every day surveying. Both at universities tech schools and in the service. I would wager that I have helped 15 to 20 people get licensed. Even when I was not in private sector. Friends employees of friends. I had not even taken the FS exam and would help people prepare in my own way. Give them problems that required thinking. I am not licensed yet. Trying to nail down this states boundary principles and law so that I am not just getting licensed to be licensed just because I meet some minimum requirements. Which I do at this point but I am smart enough to know that I still have some basic things I need to get a handle on before filling those shoes. Studying now. Helping a guy now prep for his FS. He is going through all the books all the prep materials. I just choose a few problems that require the use of multiple equations. Now he is harder for me to teach as he is programming or putting the equations in his calculator. My old dyslexia brain can’t grasp that. I like pictures. A rough sketch of the problem usually points me to the approach. My wife said when I retire I should just go back to school and get my degree lol. Maybe so. I love learning. I buy books and just go through them that are random on surveying and geomatics programs course syllabus. Love it
I think when you work in an area. And can pick up a plat and know almost without any doubt how that survey will go before setting foot on the ground because you know this guys or gals trail you know when you fallow them what to expect. Good and bad. Not to say one cannot survey all over multiple licenses. But no way to understand fully when doing that. I could go down a line in other states from my early days and know which company what LS was in charge by the way flagging was tied what color. How there lines were cut. I knew that area well. Cigarette butts even. You knew most and that was good knowledge. Company A might kick the leave a bit where Company B would dig to China to prove the corner was in or not. All from how they were mentored.
You can pass that torch. You have way more education than most and can take that knowledge and teach those that do not. While you are teaching you will learn even more. Trust me. When questions start flying you have 2 choices. Find the answer or say it doesn’t matter just do this. Don’t be that guy. Go dig for the answers. It might take a few moments or a few years later that lightbulb comes on and bam you are like darn I now have the answer . I think you are going to go far. Just teach what you know to others. Make them better.
If you remove the logic of having to manually calculate, that means that
you assert that advanced mathematics in the degree program are not
necessary.
While I completely agree with you that a licensee needs to be able to manually calculate. You need to understand what the results mean when you push the button.
NCEES writes the exam assuming you have a degree and thus have passed the required mathematics through calculus. From the NCEES page: https://ncees.org/exams/fs-exam/
The Fundamentals of Surveying (FS) exam is generally your first step in
the process to becoming a licensed professional surveyor (P.S.). It is
designed for recent graduates and students who are close to finishing an
undergraduate surveying degree from an ABET-accredited program.
The problem this creates is in states without a degree requirement, there is no testing of the candidates mathematics skills.
"While I completely agree with you that a licensee needs to be able to manually calculate. You need to understand what the results mean when you push the button."
Exactly the point that I was expressing.
Both the FS and PS are national exams (I'm sure you knew that already). The statement you quoted about who the test is designed for implies that the math abilities are being tested. Unless you are saying that the state-specifics vary according to state educational requirements, I am not sure I'm following you here.
kev, that Van Sickle text was my main study material preparing for the FS about 3.5 yrs ago. I used some other material as well. It is a broad subject based exam, but Solved... is very good prep, and you should be taking the NCEES practice exam to see where you're at. It is/was a good representative sample, imo.
It would be my opinion for you to be able to work through 90%+ of EACH chapter before feeling like you are ready to go. You are correct, it doesn't have FS sections or PS sections. It has chapters by subject material. It starts out each chapter on the basic end and advances in difficulty as you go through the chapter. In all honesty, some of the problems in the last parts of those chapters that math was a prevalent part, I had to do some outside research to try and self teach. My associates degree completed 13 yrs earlier didn't go in to some of that type of math, and to be honest, I had no idea of how to attempt it (thinking matrices here).
I am using the same book to prep for the PS right now.
Do you have anyone you can run some of these problems by, to get their input or assistance with? Feel free to drop me a line and I will help if I can. Kudos to you for even attempting it, so many won't. They won't TRY. It's hard to find some try. The same ones complaining about the hiring pool being so small are often the same ones too busy to help someone who is willing to try. Initiative, and commitment to a goal, are worth having.
Based on the NCEES statement I believe that NCEES is writing the test with the assumption that you have a degree, and have successfully passed the required mathematics to get that degree.
There is a lot of information to be covered even in the FS test in limited amount of time. Retesting basic math skills may not be the best use of that time. I'm not talking about eliminating applied mathematics to solve a survey problem.
States without a degree requirement will need to test the basic math skills during the State specific portion of the exam.
The test is always evolving, and should keep evolving to keep up with changes in the profession. I'd be very surprised if the current test was asking you to solve the area of a parcel using DMD (Double-Meridian-Distance) but on the flip side about the closest thing I got to geodetic when I took the test was a couple of question on State Plane.
If I were preparing for the FS . I would be prepared to solve for area via the DMD. I would be prepared to adjust the lat and departure as well before solving. Hint always start with the westerly most point when utilizing this method. Of course every test is different so every one gets different questions etc. I took it only a few years back. For the math I would say I had a mixture of academic math problems and more of applying that to a survey type scenario. So here is a survey problem solve for X. It might take a few different formulas to get to the answer. I could tell it was written for a degree holder. However I think anyone that prepares and has performed these critical thinking and problem solving skills in the field should be able to navigate through the exam.
i haven't done the math but based on what your saying , I'm assuming is a 3, 4 , 5, triangle 30, 60, 90 triangle........the distance is 5 ft and the bearing should be S60W
I haven’t done the math but based on what your saying , I’m assuming is a 3, 4 , 5, triangle 30, 60, 90 triangle……..the distance is 5 ft and the bearing should be S60W
akuna matada it means no worries
No offense but the better course of action is to study the book and master it as much as possible, from cover to cover, as well as studying the other "bible" textbooks relating to boundaries, descriptions and case law.
Taking the test over and over and over again until you get lucky will not instill confidence in either the Board or your peers.
no offense but i know myself ....is either i pass or fail....and if anything ill ask the board for the results
theres no such thing as luck.
luck is a circumstance thats in your favor
I don't want to offend anyone . but if you guys want to know the truth is either I pass or fail. in everything that i do in life is either i pass or fail. there is no such thing as luck. Luck is a circumstance thats in your favor. If anything I'll ask the board for the results.
Luck is not what is being tested, knowledge and skills are what you are there to prove to the Board. You seem to be taking the roll the dice approach instead of doing the hard work that inspires confidence on the part of your peers.
This is not a game of chance that we are talking about. Taking your approach, I would encourage you to play the lottery and see if you get lucky with little effort.
I dunno what DMD is; unless it was called something else when I learned it.
