So... The Michigan Occupational Code states:?ÿ
339.2010 Firm; practice of architecture, professional engineering, or professional surveying; approval of nonlicensed principal and principal's firm; report; person in responsible charge at each place of business; exception.
Sec. 2010.
All you have to do is apply, and you will (should) get it.
If there is a spot in the form submission where you can type, just add a statement to the effect of "the conduct of the firm and its principals will comply with rules promulgated by the department".
This is a poorly worded passage in the MI licensing arena that has never been addressed, and never been enforced, to my knowledge.
BTW, to my knowledge, most A,E,S firms don't even take these steps. Including the MI firms that do meet the 2/3 requirement.
I don't understand why it matters that the principals are licensed.
I don't understand why it matters that the principals are licensed.
Welcome to MI. Where none of the laws about AES make any sense, and most of them aren't followed.
I don't understand why it matters that the principals are licensed.
Aren't they the ones that dictate policy?
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Maybe, but what does that have to do with being a competent surveyor??ÿ Or engineer?
what does that have to do with being a competent surveyor??ÿ Or engineer?
It doesn't; because they aren't surveyors, or engineers...
Are they competent? Then they should sit for the exam and prove it.
@michigan-left Thanks.?ÿ A few of our bigger engineering clients are getting a lot of RFI's from DTE Energy and, as always, I want a piece of the pie.
I'm moving!
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jk..
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I left the Midwest winters and I won't ever come back...
well, it depends...
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???? ?????ÿ
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I'm moving!
Yeah, everyone here is moving too...
Our lips are moving, but it's because our teeth are chattering.
If you do come back, just add a little hooch to your coffee. Makes the warmth last just a little bit longer.
@michigan-left It is poorly written.?ÿ I (and others) originally read "not less than 2/3 of the principals of the firm are licensees." as Michigan licensees, now I'm not sure.
Either way I think I have two of our PLS's who are going to apply for the exam
Last of my thoughts on this topic...
If you plan on doing work here (or anywhere): Register your business(es) in the proper jurisdiction(s), acquire the proper licensing, have a physical presence, hire the proper staff, and pay your MI taxes.
Here are some more tidbits to mull over:
339.2010 Firm; practice of architecture, professional engineering, or professional surveying;
approval of nonlicensed principal and principal's firm; report; person in responsible
charge at each place of business; exception.
Sec. 2010. (1) A firm may engage in the practice of architecture, professional engineering, or professional surveying in this state, if not less than 2/3 of the principals of the firm are licensees.
(2) However, a nonlicensed principal and the principal's firm shall apply for and receive an approval from the department to engage in the practice of architecture, professional engineering, or professional surveying, if the conduct of the firm and its principals comply with rules promulgated by the department.
(3) Upon request by the department, a firm shall report to the department the names and addresses of its principals, persons in responsible charge, unlicensed principals, and any other information the department considers necessary.
(4) A firm shall employ a person in responsible charge in the field of services offered at each place of business in this state where services are offered by the firm, except at a field office which provides only a review of construction.
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Here is a link to the 121 pages of the entire MI Occupational Code:
This part discusses "licensees":
339.105 Definitions; L to V.
Sec. 105. (1) "License" means the document issued to a person under this act that enables the person to use a designated title and practice an occupation, which practice would otherwise be prohibited by this act. License includes a document issued by the department that permits a school, institution, or person to offer training or education in an occupation or that permits the operation of a facility, establishment, or institution in which an occupation is practiced. License includes a permit or approval.
(2) "Licensee" means either of the following, as applicable:
(a) In articles 1 to 6, a person that is licensed or required to be licensed under this act.
(b) In a specific article of this act, a person that is licensed or required to be licensed under that article.
(4) "Occupation" means a field of endeavor regulated under this act.
(5) "Person" means any of the following:
(a) An individual.
(b) A sole proprietorship, partnership, association, corporation, limited liability company, or common law trust.
(c) A combination of persons described in subdivision (a) or (b).
(d) A department, board, school, institution, establishment, or governmental entity.
(10) "Registrant" means a person that is registered under this act.
(11) "Registration" means the document issued to a person under this act that enables the person to use a designated title, which use would be otherwise prohibited by this act.
(12) "Rule" means a rule promulgated under this act and under the administrative procedures act of 1969, 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.201 to 24.328.
(13) "State" means the District of Columbia or a commonwealth, state, or territory of the United States.
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Article 20 (A,E,S) Excerpt:
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(z0leayecon4lg3wrwccctfhz))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-299-1980-20.pdf
339.2001 Definitions.
Sec. 2001. As used in this article:
(b) "Firm" means a sole proprietorship, partnership, corporation, or limited liability company through which a person licensed under this article offers or provides a service to the public.
(c) "Person" means a natural person notwithstanding section 105(5).
(d) "Person in responsible charge" means a person licensed under this article who determines technical questions of design and policy; advises the client; supervises and is in responsible charge of the work of subordinates; is the person whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the plans, designs, plats, surveys, and advice involved in the services; and who supervises the review of material and completed phases of construction.
(f) "Practice of professional surveying" means providing professional services such as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, mapping, assembling, and interpreting reliable scientific measurements and information relative to the location, size, shape, or physical features of the earth, improvements on the earth, the space above the earth, or any part of the earth, and the utilization and development of these facts and interpretations into an orderly survey map, plan, report, description, or project.
The practice of professional surveying includes all of the following:
(i) Land surveying that is the surveying of an area for its correct determination or description for its conveyance, or for the establishment or reestablishment of a land boundary and the designing or design coordination of the plotting of land and the subdivision of land.
(ii) Geodetic surveying that includes surveying for determination of the size and shape of the earth both horizontally and vertically and the precise positioning of points on the earth utilizing angular and linear measurements through spatially oriented spherical geometry.
(iii) Utilizing and managing land information systems through establishment of datums and local coordinate systems and points of reference.
(iv) Engineering and architectural surveying for design and construction layout of infrastructure.
(v) Cartographic surveying for making maps, including topographic and hydrographic mapping.
(h) "Principal" means a sole proprietor, partner, the president, vice-president, secretary, treasurer, or director of a corporation, or a member or manager of a limited liability company.
(j) "Professional surveyor" means a person who, by reason of knowledge of law, mathematics, physical sciences, and techniques of measuring acquired by professional education and practical experience, is qualified to engage in the practice of professional surveying.
(k) "Services" means professional service offered or provided by an architect in the practice of architecture, a professional engineer in the practice of professional engineering, or a professional surveyor in the practice of professional surveying.
@bstrand, I should have added the different statutory requirements for ethics of a professional vs an unlicensed principal.?ÿ Some here may have worked for a firm with principals who were not licensed.?ÿ On more than one occasion, I was told to do something I though?ÿ unethical by an unlicensed principal.?ÿ I always refused and the principals were always able to find a licensed professional to sign.?ÿ Some (not all) owners when given a choice will take profit over statutory requirements.
One CEO of a large firm I worked for was licensed professional and required a high level of ethics for all employees.?ÿ He set a high standard.
