So I do predominantly site engineering, GPS models or construction related staking tasks for a select few clients as a PE/PLS while enjoying working with other surveyors around here. Had plenty of previous experience working on boundary & other surveys but it??s not something I would work on typically.?ÿSadly, some of the surveyors around here that I have enjoyed working with for years are gone (either retired or deceased). Really, really going to miss them as those are days and/or memories with former mentors that I won??t ever get back and some were a hoot to deal with haha
So moving forward, some of the mutual clients that we all worked for, now need full service survey needs instead of splitting up services. I??m plenty capable of performing all aspects but I know my time & costs associated with these other tasks won??t be as cheap as my predecessors. I also know that I can??t short-change myself on the amount of time or money needed for these tasks.?ÿ
So my question for you all is how do you tackle estimating your time adequately (for proposals to clients) knowing which areas you??re efficient & thorough in versus what you??re not as fast at working through??ÿI have heard some before mention offering ranges in their proposals for various needs or tasks. After working through ?ÿ ?ÿseveral of my previous proposals myself, I have seen just what sort of damage underestimating my time can really cost me so putting a certain multiplier on it as a factor of safety is not a bad thing.?ÿ
Sadly I think spending too much time in the office has given me a decent perception of my ability to estimate what I can do at a desk but estimating field time is something that I??m worried may take some experience to better know. But how do you not lose your @$$ on certain tasks in the mean while and stay fair to the client?
almost 60 views in a couple hours and no takers??ÿ
First off - I am very disappointed in the loss to Miami. I wanted our guys to shut that kid up. But darn if he didn??t deliver. Two star LBs out now. It??s going to be rough from here on out.?ÿ
Someone told me once that I shouldn??t worry about what the other guy is charging. I believe there is some truth to that. I don??t want to be the cheapest guy out there. Nor do I want to be the most expensive. I estimate my time based on my own production rates, not on someone else??s.
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Do what your mechanic does. Provide an estimate based on book time and bill at your?ÿ standard hourly fees if it takes longer.?ÿ Don't?ÿ forget to tell them that you ran into unexpected problems when you bill them twice as much.
You have a couple of other options. Become a better estimator and learn from your mistakes.?ÿ?ÿTell them you suck at estimating and charge them hourly.
My lump sum fees always involved some research to see what I was stepping in.
Happy trails!
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@bushaxe?ÿ Correct. Being the cheapest guy guarantees you are leaving money on the table on every project, and you won't make it up on volume. ?????ÿ
That being said, being the cheapest guy may get your foot in the door, from where you can reach through and pick up that money on the table, and then some.
For a period of time I was doing construction layout for several contractor clients. They were not asking me to bid on jobs, but they would ask for cost estimates. Which they needed to anticipate their costs for the job. The ability to give them an accurate estimate was a part of why they hired me.?ÿ
As far as worrying about the other guys time estimates - if I'm taking a significantly longer or shorter time to perform a particular task that is very important information to me. I need to know if I need to figure out a better way, or when I can value bill.?ÿ ?ÿ
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I'm getting about one out of every ten boundaries in your area and I'm pricing them lower than I should.?ÿ You may find that even with your best estimates, you won't be able to make a reasonable profit on boundaries.?ÿ $700 for a boundary is what I'm hearing when I check back to find out why I didn't get the job.?ÿ?ÿ
Analyze your P/L on a monthly basis.?ÿ Raise your fees to keep the numbers in the positive direction. Lump sum costs are better than trying to track hours all the time but depending on the size of your org that can change.?ÿ?ÿ
1.?ÿ Don't give a lump sum estimate until you have better defined your abilities with research, field evidence identification & collection, and finalizing boundaries.?ÿ
2.?ÿ Bill for productive time, note time learning how to be more efficient and show as a credit on your invoice.
3.?ÿ Be reliable with your deliveries.?ÿ If you tell a client you'll have their survey in 14 days, deliver it in 13 days (if possible).?ÿ If you see you'll be longer than estimated, give the client a call as soon as you discover that there is a problem making your deli9very date.
@murphy?ÿ
Yes I have heard similar for around here in NC and this typically seems to be for residential or lot surveys. Some may have a profitable market at that price. But I don??t have any real desire to get into that area unless things get tough as $700 is too low for me & the risk associated with it.
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I think in general surveyors need to not only value their time & costs but also from the legal standpoint the actual value of the property being affected by the survey (should they later be sued for it). I??m just not an optimistic person I guess?ÿ
@richard-imrie?ÿ I'm afraid once you label yourself as low price your clients will expect low price. It is hard to get around a label like that.
20 years ago I was working at an outfit that had a half dozen crews and office staff to support that. Over $2million a year billing.?ÿ The department handled many different types of survey work, with various staff specializing in one area ore another. I was one of the transportation surveyors, doing (mostly) design support level work on road improvement projects, with some construction staking on those projects as well.
At my level we were always shown the hours expended reports but never the project budgets, nor included in the scoping and estimating. The project budget number could be had, it wasn't a secret, but it wasn't in the weekly reports. We were just told that x job went OK, and y job went over budget. From my perspective there never seemed to be any rhyme or reason to that. Jobs that seemed to go well might go over budget, jobs that had issues might be under.
So I started asking question of my bosses about how they came up with the budget estimates. Did they have some sort of formula??ÿ Some process? I eventually - it took some time and expended rather a lot of political capital - extracted the information that they (the senior department managers and engineering project managers) just conjured up a number "based on experience". Jobs were too varied in nature to apply any sort of formula, they said.?ÿ
B.S., I thought. I might have even said it out loud.?ÿ?ÿ
So I compiled time and budget data on a dozen (or so) recent projects of the type I was assigned to. It didn't take long to show that the cost for the control and topographic mapping portion of the projects could be estimated to +/- 15% or so simply by applying a cost per linear foot of right of way figure. And it wasn't too tough to figure which ones would be on the high side, which on the low by a simple drive-by inspection. This was before Google Earth was a thing.?ÿ
That wasn't enough to convince the powers that were.
So I figured out time by building a spreadsheet. Control points every 600 feet for the length of the project at so many hours per,?ÿ So many cross sections with so many points per cross section for so many feet at so many shots per day. That many shots again for utilities and other street features. So much time for dipping manholes. So many hours in the office per hour of field time. And so on.?ÿ The two methods complimented each other.
The powers that were never could bring themselves to fully embrace or endorse my procedure but they would, sometimes, ask for confirmation of their "based on experience" numbers. More often I was able to point to my method, when it became necessary, to show that they had underbudgeted.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
I went on to apply the method to other phases and types of work and it has served me well. Extract quantities, estimate production rates, apply per hour billing rates.?ÿ
For production rates of things I'm was not very familiar with I quizzed the party chiefs and field crew, mostly. They were always cagey at first, figuring I was angling to fix blame. And the answers always begin with "it depends". But eventually you get an idea, and you refine it over time.?ÿ It is, after all, only an estimate.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
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I agree with that Mark. That's why I said there is "some truth" to that. If I have the opportunity, I talk to other surveyors outside of my area and ask them directly how long it takes them to do certain jobs.?ÿ
