@scrim. I guess I should only have posted the plat.
The question is what is the front lot line. And if your input is the entirety of the radius, then what is that based on. I have been told that “best practice” is the entire radius. But so far nobody not even the state board can point to a legal underpinning for this practice. There are zoning ordinances in various municipalities that address frontage on a curve, but they appear limited to interior radius properties. and most do not address ownership greater than 135 degrees.
I have reviewed numerous zoning regulations and text book cases complete with diagrams of various lot types but have not found this specific case.
thanks for your input
so the entire radius is the front lot line?
The solid curved blue line - the one that passes across your concrete driveway and comes with 9.0' of the front of your slab- is the right of way line and therefore you property line.
Basis for this if so?
That is what the map you provided shows. And it is a very common circumstance.
And, for the record the map also shows your slab encroaching into a utility easement (the U.E. on the map) both front and back. Also encroaching into a "B.L.",which I'm guessing stands for "building line" - which I would call a "setback requirement".
BTW-In my states there is no such thing as an unzoned area with no ordinances. There are certainly some places with minimal restrictions. But none with no restrictions at all.
so the entire radius is the front lot line?
I wouldn't call it a radius; call it an arc.
What is prompting you to figure this out?
First step: Establish the radius point. Get a can of inverted spray paint and strike an arc 40' from one of the found corners. Measure from one of the other corners to the point where 40' intersects. Check the distance to the other found corners. 90 deg angles work best at the intersection, but take what you can get.
Step B: Take your can of paint and mark the arc 40 feet from your established radius point.
Hope this helps; please let me know if you need anything else or if you have any other questions or concerns.
Thank you,
Dougie
The front lot line is clearly defined by the subdivision plat. It is an arc of 74.71 feet that has a radius of 40 feet from the calculated center of the cul-de-sac. The fact that the cul-de-sac is unconstructed has no bearing on where your front lot line is. The 40' radius cul-de-sac is a dedicated public right of way, as shown on the plat. That is the basis: the plat. There is no "best practice", it is a clear fact. The "underpinnings" are based upon AASHTO policy on geometric design of highways and streets. 40' is the required radius of the cu-de-sac (if constructed) to allow emergency vehicles to turn around at the end of the road. These road geometrics are typically further defined by the county planning commission or local subdivision ordinance to ensure that developers provide (and construct) safe roads for the public. The fact that your cul-de-sac was not constructed indicates that development standards are quite lax in your community. If anyone (neighbors, town, county, state) wanted to put that cul-de-sac in, they would tear up the concrete pad that you constructed in the right-of-way. And your house would be that much closer to the public road way. Also note that your house footprint encroaches into the 10' public utility easement that is along (offset into your lot) the front lot line. If a utility company needed to use it (power, electric, whatever) they have all the right to go in there and install utilities.
Not sure what you are getting at, or how you want the facts distorted in your favor. To a land surveyor, this is all clear as day. No if, ands, or buts. The real question is, why wasn't a land surveyor consulted before someone started building? Doesn't your community require a building or zoning permit prior to construction? How about a driveway permit? There is a reason these permits are required, not everyone understands how to read a subdivision plat.
Sorry for the rant, and I'm glad you are asking questions. I deal with these types of issues on a daily basis. Most of the time people come to me after the fact, after they are in trouble. Always remember, being an attorney or engineer doesn't make you a land surveyor.
legal underpinning for this practice
I don't see a legal underpinning. You only own what your deed says you own. The limits of your property are defined in your deed. The regulations in the municipality where you live; govern where, what and how you can build what you want to build.
You're welcome.
Dougie
@jsargent99 the "legal underpinning" is the words themselves. What do you need to know the frontage for? In common usage a lot's frontage is the length of the boundary that is common to the lot and the ROW.
I have never seen a local ordinance that really departs much from that. Of course that doesn't mean they don't exist. Here is the definition from the ordinance that is most convenient for me to look up:
Frontage” means that dimension of a lot which abuts upon a road right-of-way or other access.
Most are similar. Unless guided by a local ordinance that says otherwise, you would struggle to convince anyone it isn't the length if the curve.
Your search probably didn't turn anything up, because this may seem to obvious to most people to bother talking about it.
I think maybe there's a little confusion on the question that your asking, the lot line isn't a line per se, but an arc as depicted on your plat, the center of that arc or commonly referred to as the radius point, is the theoretical center of the cul de sac. From said radius point the arc of property line is scribed on a 40' radius off that radius point. The radius point being located, in theory any way, 40' from all property corners shown on the plat common with the arc of the entire cul de sac. Very, very common and clearly understood by any and all surveyors. The plat depicting the lot is the legal description for your lot and and is referred to as a 'reference' description (referencing the plat). There is no alternative interpretation. This will most likely only become a major issue for the 'owner/builder' when they go to sell the property and the bank requires an as-built survey showing buildings and improvements in relation to the easement and ROW/property lines, as a condition of financing, in which case the encroachments will constitute cause for the bank to decline to finance the sale. If they had to foreclose, they don't want a headache on their hands.
@williwaw most reasoned answer so far.
encroachment agreements with the dominant estates of the easements are in place so that is not the issue. But so you know, The front easement is subterranean water line and the rear is arial power line. The power line easement is waived because the actual line runs diagonally across the property. Not sure why the surveyor didn’t pick this up.
so please focus in on the radius of the cul-de-sac. if your assertion is the entire 150 degrees in the legal front property line point us to the law/text/case law supporting this position.
FWIW multiple zoning ordinances define the front lot line, if it is a curve, as the chord connecting the 2 corners of the lot
FWIW multiple zoning ordinances define the front lot line, if it is a curve, as the chord connecting the 2 corners of the lot
Zoning ordinances have absolutely nothing to do with defining your lot's boundary, but you're free to believe whatever you like. This is the age of alternative facts after all. Also the utility easements were dedicated by the subdivision plat for the use of all utilities, those present and in the future. I'm not sure why you're here asking surveyors to clarify survey related questions when it appears that you are already convinced that you have all of the answers. Good luck with that.
so please focus in on the radius of the cul-de-sac. if your assertion is the entire 150 degrees in the legal front property line point us to the law/text/case law supporting this position.
I am the subject matter expert. So are all the people that answered the question. We ARE the source that you cite.
So...better question...what source to disagree?
I am not saying this to be arrogant, but to attempt to put into perspective what is occurring here. This forum isn't (just) a collection of crackpots that will argue about how to put together your truck or which handgun is best, or whatever. The people answering this question are well intentioned, honest to goodness experts in the field that are making a good faith effort to answer your question.
From what I can see, you WANT to own a straight line between the two front corners of your property. Every answer so far encourages you to look at your legal description, see what lot in what plat you bought, and then look at the plat. If it has a curve on the front of your lot...well, that is what you bought.
And, no, you cannot adversely possess or gain exclusive rights to a right of way, unless you can get it vacated, and then you would just get a slice, not the whole thing.
Just Wow!
@scrim thank you.
as hard as it is to believe there are still areas untouched by regulation and development rules. I live in one.
The road in question was platted to meet Texas County Road regulations. But that’s where it ended. The 40’ radius cul-de-sac was never built and the road is now a private road in a multi owner subdivision.
the time line is the subdivision plat was filed in 1981. then deed restrictions were recorded months later. The building set backs do not appear on the plat. The deed restrictions did not run with the land so are arguably null for all but original owners.
this is not a title survey so no title orders & all that implies.
The deed is silent on easements and building set backs.
the restrictions establish a 5’ side street building set back and a 20’ front line set back. Neither of these terms has a legally accepted definition per my attorneys. Neither is defined in the restrictions. If there was just a 20’ setback from all roads this would be clear.
Not trying to skew anything just running the traps to see if the greater survey group can point to legal definitions for these two terms.
@aliquot yet if a lot fronts on a single road that makes a 90 degree curve then in fact it has two frontages. One usually the shortest is designated the front lot line while the longer is commonly designated the side lot line. However this is not concrete because the initial owner can request the longer line be the front lot line if that’s were his front door and thus front yard is oriented. This case is clear when the lot is on the inside of the curve. It is not clear on the outside of a curve.
I am confused by the 50' ROW for the street and the 40' radius with found pins on the radius.
Looks like the 50' street ROW runs up to the throat of the cul-de-sac. Would you agree that the ROW in the cul-de-sac is 80'?
@jsargent99 ahh, I see you aren't actually asking how to calculate the frontage, you are asking about front yard vs. side yard. There is actually no standardization of that. It varies based on local zoning ordinances. But you said there is no zoning? The other place that may be defined is the local subdivision ordinances, but that will only apply if you are subdividing.
You will probably get much better help if you explain what you are doing, and why this matters. Are there covenants that refer to side and front frontage?
