Why Does Being A Non-Traditional Survey Student Matter ?

[ralph-perez]

What happened to the board that was combining Hairdressers and Surveyors?:-)

[duane-frymire]

I don’t think so. In individual applicant cases I think the surveyor members are given their rightful leading role in the decision process. But it is unquestionable that those with an engineering or architect degree believe they are capable of anything and those without are in a caste somewhere below. Surveying degrees are every bit as rigorous but somehow the profession has not been able to elevate the surveying degree to the status it deserves in the eyes of the public and other professions.

Back to the question though, the problem is that there are generally more members of the other professions and so they have more representatives on the board. The boards have political weight by issuing interpretations of legislation that can only come from a majority vote. The professions have competing interests. So, there is an inherent conflict of interests in which the surveyors can not possibly win and have their opinion known. Instead, the opinion of the board goes to politicians and administrators under the heading of the board for both professions, falsly indicating it is the actual opinion of all professions represented by the board. In the best case the survey members might actually vote for a position against their professions interest in order to get cooperation from other members on a vote of more importance. But, the profession with majority control need not compromise at all. These opinions many times are not in any way binding, but do have political weight. Those with the less than majority membership on a combined board (whichever profession it may be) does not get equal representation in our legal and regulatory system.

This is one of the arguments for self regulation and at the same time one of the reasons it will never happen. Surveyors simply do not have the numbers or economic power to achieve equal representation in most States.

If you look at the big picture, it might be that lack of a recognized traditional curriculum path, and a lack of a majority in the profession following it, could have led to a narrowing of the profession. This could have led to even fewer persuing a traditional education route due to declining opportunity for larger salaries, usually reserved for those with more varied knowledge and skills, needed to pay for the education.

But that’s pure speculation.

There is and should be nothing wrong with “non-traditional” education, most of mine was gained that way. But perceptions and traditions are hard to break through, especially without political voice.

[paul-in-pa]

Bonus Boards For Ralph

I thought it would complicate the list, so I left it off the first chart.

Professional Engineers, Architects and Land Surveyors – 7 Boards
Alaska
Colorado
Guam
South Dakota + Landscape Architects + Petroleum Release
Virgin Islands
Virginia + Landscape Architects + Certified Interior Designer
Wisconsin + Landscape Architects + Designer (Designer of Engineering Systems)

Professional Engineers, Architects, Land Surveyors and Geologists – 5 Boards
Arizona + Landscape Architects
Hawaii + Landscape Architects
Kansas + Landscape Architects
Minnesota + Landscape Architects + Interior Design; (Geoscience not Geologist)
Missouri + Landscape Architects

Nebraska and Tennessee have separate Land Surveyor boards, but combined boards for Architects and Engineers.

Also Illinois has a board for Structural Engineers separate from the Profession Engineers board.

Paul in PA

[paul-in-pa]

Duane Said It Better Than I Did

Influence on the laws is what I was thinking, but couldn’t form the words.

“ABET only” education is highly influenced by engineers, not just on the boards but by NCEES also.

Many states still allow experience only applicants, but much fewer states actually give some acknowledgement to the non-traditional student.

I believe the committee working on the “Surveying Body of Knowledge” is concentrating on a 4 year program. Surveying might be better served with a universal minimum for a 2 year program, that would be accepted by all of the fewer colleges with 4 year programs. A National Clearing House to vet the non ABET non traditional curriculum, read an NCEES subcommittee.

I suggest a “Pre Fundamentals of Surveying Exam” a 2 day (4, 6 or 8 parts) exam given once a year concurrent with FS and PS. I am not ruling out one on one testing from a Certifed Mentor, which may require you and the mentor coming to the exam site to complete a task. It is graded and evaluated based on subjects in the “Body of Knowledge”. You would receive 4, 6 or 8 grades and suggestions what could be done to improve said grades.

80-100% is proficiency and that part need not be taken again. Some parts might qualify the individual as a certified crew chief.

60-80% shows an understanding of the material, and suggestions are given for improvement.

Less than 60% indicates a deficiency, requirements for improvement are given and must be substantially completed prior to retesting.

Successful completion of all parts with a score of 70% plus gets you a Surveying Certificate of Knowledge (think GED) acceptable as an AS. Then you get an opportunity to take the FS.

Paul in PA

[p-l-parsons]

That was Florida, see above that it is now it’s own separate board. When and how did that happen? At last word Florida PSMs were back under engineers, specifically to get them AWAY from the hairdressers.

[p-l-parsons]

Duane Said It Better Than I Did

I just gave up years ago and decided if I was going to be a technician, so be it, the check still clears the bank and found out over the past few years there is some job security in construction, even if it means I have to travel constantly.

Yes, there is a bias to college educated professionals as a result of boards populated with degreed individuals. I’ve hit the ceiling in three different professions because I don’t have a degree, even when I’ve done the job in an interim capacity until a degreed individual could be hired. In a few cases I’ve then been tasked with training the degreed individual to take my place.

I have no credibility among the academics, until stuff actually has to be done.

[paul-in-pa]

Florida Board Per NCEES

http://www.800helpfla.com/psm/psm.html

The above link works is all I know.

Paul in PA

[holy-cow]

My Experience with Similar Boards

My experience has been that mixed boards tend to agree on the broad spectrum topics that fall under their jurisdiction while the majority normally allow each minority to pretty much rule their own section. Hence, you have two or three “kingpins” making the actual decisions for their minority.

The problem is that these BOR reps are usually not true representatives of 90 percent of those they are to represent. And, they are not appointed by their peers.

[dave-karoly]

If a High School student asked for my advice I would recommend they seek any Engineering degree other than Land Surveying. If they earn a BSCE they have much broader job possibilities and can always work as a Land Surveyor with BSCE if they have the opportunity.

[DeletedUser]

Does this create a bias or prejudgement before the survey applicant even fills out his application?

No, IMO and experience