What would you do?

[nate-the-surveyor]

Well, I’m not the best one here, to be advising you, however, my experience is what I have to rely upon in this. It’s not necessarily the best thing to go on, but, when that’s all you’ve got, you use what you have.
I Filed the FIRST properly filed complaint, in the state of Arkansas, against Gary Whitfield. His work was a delight to both client, and bank alike. (not expensive, and fast) however, rear pins were not often set. He set wood stakes alot. (I did it in my dad’s name)
He had a buddy on the state bor that helped him. His LS Number was 882.
The other one, that I had a part in into non survey land, was Bob Zickwolf. Bob and I were personally friends. I gave him my chain saw mix 2 x, when finding him stranded on the road, out of gas.
Bob did not supervise his crews quite enough. He blew a 1/2 mile by 400′ survey line, in Caddo Gap. My client cut Calvin Horn’s timber. I found it, and my client took it to the BOR. I had to supply the plat. I was not after Bob. But my client was out alot of money, and they did have to pay for the timber.

The BOR’s try real hard to be impartial. They want to stay away from petty squabbles, between surveyors. But, they, if they have to take action, want SUBSTANCE.

Whatever you decide to do, KEEP COPIES of your complaint, page by page.
Send it all via registered mail.
Notarize your letter, included with the complaint.
Keep it professional.
IF you do it without spite, then you will be ok. There comes a point, when you are complicit, by saying nothing.

This is one of those deals, where you observe a drunk, driving, and causing mischief, and you eventually have to speak up, or live with the carnage, for the rest of your life. And, that you did not do your part to stop foolishness.

Nate

[james-fleming]

I would hope that the board, being predominately made up of licensed professionals themselves, would see the situation the same way that you do: that if the facts are as you laid them out, then this isn’t so much a situation of professional malpractice on the surveyors part as unlicensed practice and fraud on the son’s part. I think you got to go to the board to stop the son and maybe save the fathers reputation for future generations of surveyors who follow in his footsteps.

Worst case scenario for the old time surveyor is that he finds out his son is an ******* (rhymes with Bass Hole), but surveyors being perceptive sorts, I suspect, deep down, he probably knows that already.

[MEDIA=youtube]c4Y0yyIOurc[/MEDIA]

[Mark Mayer]

The mere fact that you have been unable to get a timely response to your inquiries from the registrant is grounds enough for a complaint. That was stressed at the last OSLS convention I attended. Make your initial complaint on that basis and let the chips fall where they may.

You know that the current circumstance can’t be allowed to continue.

[RADAR]

Help your client file a complaint with the board…..

I’m not in Oklahoma; so I might be off base here, but it seems to me that your clients neighbor wants to tear down old established fence lines; complete with survey markers; and rebuild a new occupation based on a slap shot survey that you have proof, that it’s wrong.

Has your client talked to the neighbor? Have you talked to the neighbor? This could all go away if the neighbor listens to reason. If he doesn’t want to listen then maybe an attorney could remind him that if it goes to court and he loses; he may be liable for damages and attorney fees.

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I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!

[Williwaw]

FWIW

https://www.ok.gov/pels/Regulations/

Section 475.18. Disciplinary actions ‰ÛÒ Grounds ‰ÛÒ Rules of Professional ConductA. As provided in subsections A and B or Section 475.8 of this title, the Board shall have the power to deny, place on probation, suspend, revoke or refuse to issue a certificate or license, or fine, reprimand, issue orders, levy administrative fines or seek other penalties, if a person or entity is found guilty of:
1. The practice of any fraud or deceit in obtaining or attempting to obtain or renew a certificate of licensure, or a certificate of authorization or in taking the examinations administered by the Board or its authorized representatives;
2. Any fraud, misrepresentation, gross negligence, incompetence, misconduct or dishonest practice, in the practice of engineering or land surveying;
3. Conviction of or entry of a plea of guilty or nolo contendere to any crime under the laws of the United States, or any state or territory thereof, which is a felony, whether related to practice or not; and conviction of or entry of a plea of guilty or nolo contendere to any crime, whether a felony, misdemeanor, or otherwise, an essential element of which is dishonesty or which is related to the practice of engineering or land surveying;
4. Failure to comply with any of the provisions of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title or any of the rules or regulations pertaining thereto;
5. Violation of the laws or rules of another state, territory, the District of Columbia, a foreign country, the United States government, or any other governmental agency, if at least one of the violations is the same or substantially equivalent to those contained in this section;
6. Failure, within thirty (30) days, to provide information requested by the Board as a result of a formal or informal complaint to the Board which would indicate a violation of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title;
7. Knowingly making false statements or signing false statements, certificates or affidavits;
8. Aiding or assisting another person or entity in violating any provision of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title or the rules or regulations pertaining thereto;
9. Violation of any terms of imposed by the Board, or using a seal or practicing engineering or land surveying while the professional engineer’s license or land surveyor’s license is suspended, revoked, non-renewed, retired or inactive;
10. Signing, affixing the professional engineer’s or land surveyor’s seal, or permitting the professional engineer’s or land surveyor’s seal or signature to be affixed to any specifications, reports, drawings, plans, design information, construction documents, calculations, other documents, or revisions thereof, which have not been prepared by, or under the direct control and personal supervision of the professional engineer or land surveyor in responsible charge;
11. Engaging in dishonorable, unethical or unprofessional conduct of a character likely to deceive, defraud or harm the public;
12. Providing false testimony or information to the Board;
13. Habitual intoxication or addiction to the use of alcohol or to the illegal use of a controlled dangerous substance;
14. Performing engineering or surveying services outside any of the licensee‰Ûªs areas of competence; and
15. Violating the Oklahoma Minimum Standards for the Practice of Land Surveying.

Personally I’d take it up with my local professional society and make a motion to file a complaint with their backing. Definitely not something I’d take lightly.

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Willy

[eapls2708]

Not wanting to drag a retired surveyor who you’ve respected during his active career is understandable and commendable, but if he is allowing his license to be used by his son and he is not exercising the proper amount of direction and control over the work his son does, then the old guy is by no means blameless in this.

If you have exhausted efforts to get directly in contact with both father and son, then IMO, you have little option but to forward the matter to the Board. Perhaps one last ditch effort to contact the father by leaving the message with the lowly draftsman, or by certified mail if you want to go that far, that if you don’t hear from him by a certain date, you will be left no option but to forward your info to the Board.

If it were someone I was really hesitant to report for whatever reason, I would probably go to that extent to avoid doing so. But if the practices engaged in by the son were causing real harm to people, I wouldn’t feel that I had much choice in the matter once direct communication failed to resolve the matter.

[mattharnett]

If you have enough evidence to reject the faulty points, set your points and show the two lines. Let your client decide what to do next. Will he stay status quo? Or will he want his day in court? If the client of said son-of-a-surveyor wants to complain, tell him to get a hold of that son-of-a-surveyor and find out what’s going on.

I feel the same way about “turning people in.” You don’t really WANT to start something but you also don’t want to just let it go.
If a landowner starts a ruckus, though, it’s out of your hands.

[ddsm]

The first thing I wouldn’t do is post names and PS numbers.:bad:

C. LICENSEE‰ÛªS OBLIGATION TO OTHER LICENSEES
3. Licensees shall not attempt to injure, maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, the professional reputation, prospects practice or employment of other licensees, nor indiscriminately criticize other licensee‰Ûªs work.
4. Licensees who are aware of any alleged violations of the Law, Rules of the Board, or these Rules of
Professional Conduct by a fellow licensee may counsel with that licensee to determine the facts. If correction is not made the licensee shall report the violation to the Board and other proper authorities.

For the question at hand, I would simply contact the BOR investigator and provide them copies of the plat. If the land owners ask your opinion about the ‘other surveyor’, provide them with the BOR’s number. Let them know that you will provide your opinion to the BOR upon request.
DDSM:-@

[a-harris]

What is it that Kris quotes, “if you find all the corners…….”

After your survey finds that the old monuments are the original monuments and you can prove that, the rest of your time will be pure profit for simply explaining that fact to the rest of the world.

The person to go to the BOR would be the land owner that paid for a bad survey. You are the surveyor that revealed the mistakes and will be mentioned as witness to that fact when the BOR investigates. They will probably ask for a copy of your survey from research to monuments held and/or set if they need it.

It all depends upon what direction the adjacent land owner wants to go when the problem is revealed.

good luck

[paden-cash]

A Harris, post: 356034, member: 81 wrote: …It all depends upon what direction the adjacent land owner wants to go when the problem is revealed.

good luck

They’re both old…(older than me..and that technically classified you as pretty darned old). There’s only a fence for about 300′ (half) of their common line, which has been there forever. The way the descriptions are written it makes me think the fence was really there first…but I digress.

Nobody wants to remove or replace any fences. Adjoiner had his property surveyed (pronounced suh-VADE’) to satisfy something to do with his trust. He mentioned to my client the fence “was in the wrong place”…according to new survey, and gave my client a copy of the survey. That was when my client contacted me. The head-scratcher is that both men knew where the existing pins were located, and have for at least 30 years.

I don’t really think the neighbor is really very aggressive. I get the impression he doesn’t care where the “pins” are…the two men have their fence and their mow-line and they still wave at each other. The one that is a little hot under the collar is my client. He told me can’t understand how somebody can “come out here and change everything up”.. I assured him they really CAN’T…

I’ve tried to be awfully quiet about bashing ol’ boy’s bum survey…even though I think it sucks. And I’ve spent enough of my own time to satisfy myself the pins were just thrown in the ground by some yahoo with a rover. There has been a problem with the other survey outfit before and they always seem to escape by the skin of their teeth, due to poor documentation and proof.

This evidence just happened to drop in my lap. And although I hate to be an accessory to an execution, it might just be the best time to put an end to some chronically poor and erroneous survey work in the area. I will probably put something together for my client and allow him to present it to someone that might take it seriously…hell, I might even drive him up to town to hand deliver it himself. He seems like a nice guy and I bet we’d be good friends after an hour’s drive to town. I’ll buy lunch at one of them fancy EYE-talian places….

[Ryan Versteeg]

I concur that you should help your client file the complaint. Although the complaint from a surveyor should get the same attention as any complaint, I would think a complaint from a member of the public to which harm is being done, may have more sway than a possible proverbial “pissing match” between two surveyors. Your client and the public are the ones being damaged here. The BOR needs to enforce as necessary.

[Tom Adams]

Those guys have to be stopped. They are causing havoc and this can’t be the only place where things are all screwed up because they are doing this. I know I can’t advise you and don’t know your personal relationship with the old man, or his son. But I would go to them, email them (that’s a pretty good method of documenting your contact without the “heaviness” of a certified letter). And give them every chance to respond before going to the board. I don’t think I would ignore it.

It’s not only causing you the stress and time you have to spend, it is not in best protection of the properties of the public. (Don’t forget if the old guy is advocating this, he is really screwing up things he shouldn’t be and is very culpable, and if he has no knowledge of it going on then the son is really committing some nasty fraudulent type stuff)

[dave-lindell]

“I’ll buy lunch at one of them fancy EYE-talian places”

What do you order there? A SEE-sar salad?

[holy-cow]

Dave,

Is there another way to pronounce those words?

[holy-cow]

I am encountering a general willingness on the part of those using grid coordinates to ASSUME that certain corners are still in place and thus avoid filing new section corner reports. In one case, a monument was reported found that was actually below about four inches of fairly new asphalt in a monument box yet the asphalt was undisturbed. The first culprit is the idiot in charge of paving over the monument box. The second is a surveyor.

[paden-cash]

Dave Lindell, post: 356053, member: 55 wrote: “I’ll buy lunch at one of them fancy EYE-talian places”

What do you order there? A SEE-sar salad?

PAST’-uh, of course…maybe some sketty…;-)

[jkinak]

“Here’s the deal; the old man was not a bad surveyor in his time. There is no doubt in my mind he has nothing at all to do with the surveying nowadays. I would bet money the signatures are not even his. He has moved from his long-term residence and finding him has been futile. “

So the old guy doesn’t know just what his son is doing.

Here’s a guy who did decent work, is starting to fade and the son is exposing his father to financial ruin via lawsuit – not something that is easy to recover from at 60, 65, 70, 75.

This sounds like another case of elder abuse – family fraud.

Maybe the dad would be relieved and appreciative if someone discovered this, filed a complaint, and stopped this.

Maybe everyone, Dad, the public, fellow surveyors, and, in the long run, the son would be better off if a complaint were filed.

It sounds like the old man won’t be able to defend himself if he’s hit with a lawsuit. Even if he wins, it’ll cost him a bunch of money to defend himself. If this continues, the old man won’t have the resources to feed himself, house himself, pay for his medications… turn the kid in.

[holy-cow]

I knew of one case where a son who had worked for his father for many years was hired by the company who purchased his father’s business. But, he was still working weekends on his own. I’m not sure if his father ever knew what he was doing. The company sure didn’t know about it although he was using their gear. The father probably assumed it was extra work for the company. No drawings, no stamp required. Just do what the client thought they needed and cash the paycheck. Eventually the survey company terminated him for some unrelated reason.