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We are not really surveyors any more.
A surveyor used to measure lines. I mean, with a chain, and a compass. Hack out true line, or a parallel offset. Compass and tape it.
All the crew and spectators saw measurements occur.
Then, a surveyor used to calc it all up, with lattitudes, and departues. With a book of natural sines, and trig functions.
Then, he’d draft it all up.
That was kind of the end of “true line”
Hand written bills.
Draw out whole cities, on linen sheets. Set whatever mons were available.
Then, came theodolites, and TRUE line was rarely ever fully run. Things were done from hilltop to hilltop. Again, books with sines, Cosines, and Tangents.
Run Traverse, shoot the corners, and CALC the true lines. Still actually MEASURING angles, and distances. Chaining. Chaining nails. Traverse nails. Actually SEEING the number 200.00 in a field book. + 23.75 feet.
Or, 200.00 ft @ 3å¡ on the abney level. + 23.75′ in the book.
At this point, all new crew members actually saw measurements happening. Angles. Were wound up 2x, or 4x or 6x.
Math was adding, subtracting, sexigesimal digits.
Then, it was all done on a drafting machine, to generate a worksheet. Things were re-gurgitated, onto paper, for analysis.
Then, coords were subtracted to get northing difference, and easting difference. For field staking.
Corners were set. Life went on. But, all the crew saw actual measurements occurring.
If the crew member was only chopping brush, He SAW measurements occurring. (then went back to brushing)Then, came Data collectors. And total Stations. Measurements were occurring. But, they were MORE transparent. The laser did the distance. EDM. 1974, 1976. those EDM’s were awesome!
Then, it was all put into a TOTAL STATION. dual axis compensating. WOW!
Then, GPS.
Now, REAL TIME ON THE FLY GPS!
We no longer see measurements occurring. We only do it “via inverse”.
BUT something good has come back!
TRUE LINE again! box tape, 3.2′ north, to line.
The next generation, is not really going to know how to measure. And, how much work a survey is.We are fast becoming electronic surveying gizmo workers.
Is the next generation of surveyors going to understand a “Ground Distance” in the same way we did?I have sent out several plats, and bills, where I NEVER even printed the final. It was a bunch of ‘lectronic bits. A PDF file. And, the money was sent to me. Someday that may be just an ‘lectronic fund transfer! For some of you that has already happened!
Where are we going?
Another surveyor recently said to me: “The pick, and shovel, and briars, and ticks will sustain surveying”. Because, the general public does not want to FACE them!
So, will the very things we avoid, keep us going?
Recently, I got a job, because a GIS person, thinks something is wrong. I think they are right!
Life goes on.
But, I am concerned. We are loosing our connection to the actual nitty grit of the old ways. IS that bad. I don’t know. But, I do like the new ‘quipment! and I do like the creek when I am done.
God Bless everybody. And, may your scale factor be correct!
Nate
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26 Replies
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Many true words strung together, Nate.
Most of our jobs have visible corners but invisible lines. All they want are the corners. Nobody wants to pay to have a visible line marked from end to end.
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Run Traverse, shoot the corners, and CALC the true lines. Still actually MEASURING angles[/quote wrote:
Uhh….I guess I’m just up to that point now. Will I ever catch up?
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Nate The Surveyor, post: 346330, member: 291 wrote:
Run Traverse, shoot the corners, and CALC the true lines. Still actually MEASURING angles, and distances.I think I’m just now up to this point. Will I ever catch up? I’m enjoying it so far. Any reason to move on?
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Holy Cow, post: 346331, member: 50 wrote: Many true words strung together, Nate.
Most of our jobs have visible corners but invisible lines. All they want are the corners. Nobody wants to pay to have a visible line marked from end to end.
I’m reminded of a recent (last 10 years) of a BIG county line dispute that pitted an understaffed county surveyor and staff against the BIG consulting firm with deep pockets. At stake, if I remember correctly, was all the sales tax income from a big retail store.
The county surveyor made a valiant attempt at recovering the line with good shovel and leg work armed with only available records. The consulting firm prepared a dazzling neon and chrome courtroom dog-and-pony show that put the word “bling” on the map in surveying circles. The outcome was almost predisposed…like the local HS third string playing the New England Patriots.
But guess what? The consulting firm made a great error in the primary design of their courtroom battle. Nobody from the big consulting firm ever actually “ran the line” on the ground. Satellite imagery and 36″ x 42″ color glossy court exhibits were pretty, but inconsistent with what the courts felt a retracement should be. One of the key building blocks of a proper retracement survey is to re-run the line, on the ground, following as best as one can the footsteps of the original surveyor. Case closed.
While our technology may allow us to define a line without ever actually walking that line, it’s still inconsistent with good surveying procedure. And the good Lord willing, I hope it stays that way a while. B-)
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I know what you are saying Nate. There’s a lot more ‘and’ to surveying than there once was. You’ve got to know surveying and geodesy, technology, etc. But in my opinion, boundary surveying will always be done at the end of a shovel and a hammer. Not too many people want to take that on along with all of the and’s that go with it.
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I am doing the same tasks today that I was doing in 1974 when I became responsible for my own work after 4yrs of part time and school.
The main difference in responsibility is that I am totally responsible for the product rather than just to my boss for the day of work.
In general, as people of modern times, everyone has to be more accountable for their actions than ever before.
A small hinky in metadata still looks good on paper and will not be found without another visit to that location.
We don’t have to sit and listen to the crews oral report while we look them in they eyes, they bring in digital data in files and pictures of what they did and found that day.The tasks are the same, how they are carried out has changed very much.
Computers in the office and in the field have been the big game changer in gathering and reducing the data search in less miles traveled and more obtainable with copiers, CamScan, hand wands to being home the same info. They have opened the gates to near instant reducing of data to usable conclusions output of final surveys to hours instead of days or weeks.
Modern equipment has made measuring easier and repetitive.
The daily labor of being on the ground searching for evidence has changed very little. Metal detectors have brought the most productive advancement in tools, apart from all the ergo designs. The shovel and probe and a keen eye will always be required in finding stones, stakes, bearing trees and other witness references of natural evidence.
Bottom line is that I am still doing the “same o same o” as I have been studying on for 45 years, now differently and more effectively.
I believe we have the ability to be better Surveyors today.
:gammon:
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“I believe we have the ability to be better Surveyors today.” And the tools to do it too!!
“boundary surveying will always be done at the end of a shovel and a hammer.” (Yip, I now have 2 hammers, one is metal, an the other has batteries.)
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The hammer with batteries, is it green?
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I added a 1 3/4 inch and 2 3/4 inch auger bits for my drill to my toolbox.
They will dig a dozen holes two feet deep faster and with much less effort than I can with a pike or mattox and chop and shovel out dry clay and other hard dirt. -
Here’s me, and that sweet new hammer.
I have hesitated to give my full report, on The Javad LS and all. I have had trouble with it. It came with a bad radio. Overheating, and intermittent action. I really hammered my brains at it, the first week. At the end of the week, I figured out that the radio really was the culprit. Javad sent me a new radio, and base wire, and antenna. I finally got around to sending them the old one back on Friday.
Then, last week, (apparently) the sound card went out. So, the LS is mute.
I really came to like the sounds. So I can elevate it, and shoot building corners. BUT without sound, it’s hard to tell what is going on up there.
Javad said send it back, and we will figure it out. I was at first kinda miffed at them, for “Send it back, and it will be back in a week”. But, as I thought about it, it could take me a day to clone mine into another box, with all the settings, and the job etc. I am very tired. I have worked full time, and had other little problems, such as a refrigerator out, and a truck axle that tried to escape! Then, some tires out. Just the stuff that keeps a man busy.
So, here is my preliminary report.
Bad radio, they took care of that.
Bad on the (sound card, I think) They will take care of that.
They might send me a loaner. (that will be ok if it comes cloned!)
As it is, with all the hours I have invested they are going to extend my OAF, so I don’t have a hard deadline, in a few days.Or, I might just do research, and draw plats for a week.
But I do have this to say. It is a Geodesist in a box. And, it can do surveying. It is the bomb in the woods. Best thing I have ever seen. BUT, I had to learn how to set it up right. And, sometimes, it needs a reset of the tracking. That costs about ten seconds. each time. I had to learn that.
If you get one, and you have a solid background in geodesy, you are going to go faster than me.
I plan to go the distance with it.
I want a larger screen, and a cute little rain hat for it.
I can wear reading glasses.I like it. But, it is a bit abrupt. Lots to learn. TDS leaves you not knowing how much you do not know. This thing gives you control. At the PRICE of knowing how to control it.
I’ll do a later report, after sound is back on. And, all the bumps are done. Most ‘lectronic stuff that is going to go bad, does it within the first month anyway. This box is crammed full of ‘lectronics.
2 cameras. Microphone. Motion sensor Compass. tilt and motion sensors.
GPS, touch screen. And, it can charge your cell phone, with a usb. Or, it can charge your little helicopter.
I can see the need of a drone to go with it!Merry Christmas. And, may your Thanksgiving dinner digest!
Later
Nate
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If I had a hammer…
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Too many grab modern monuments that are easily accessed and then ask the magic box to place them on line or at intersections of stored lines so they can make a quick get away to the next job site. That is not surveying.
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Holy Cow, post: 346331, member: 50 wrote: Many true words strung together, Nate.
Most of our jobs have visible corners but invisible lines. All they want are the corners. Nobody wants to pay to have a visible line marked from end to end.
According to the Board Rules which are still in effect for our state, it is the responsibility of the surveyor to examine all lines surveyed for potential encroachments, overlaps, gaps,or other matters of survey. There are some surveys which come across my desk these days which make me wonder if the surveyor did anything more than find and measure the corners with GPS.
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Few of those coming into the profession now will experience the ‘old ways’. Hardly anyone deflects around a curve, turns out offsets or chains a line both ways. This will not be our demise.
The thing these changes bring should be efficiency. In most cases that’s what they do. Our downfall isn’t in change, it’s in failing to develop valid checks for our new work flow.
The mark of a good Surveyor is knowing his work is correct. Too many simply accept the numbers spewing forth from whatever color box they use. Not only do they not know how to check it, they don’t even understand the concept of what is being done.
All that being said, we’ve made it through a lot of changes. I suspect we will be around for quite some time to come… -
Somebody asked me “do you like the Javad down, at eye level?” I said, lots of the time, that’s ok. But, here is an example that shows where it’s just FASTER to elevate it. That’s up around 12′. That stuff is called “Privit Hedge” around here.
Cut a while, with Mr. Stihl, hook on it with the ATV winch, and pull it back. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
It’s pretty solid stuff.N
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I have a privit problem in my backyard, not to that extent though.
Can’t kill that stuff.
My theory is privit hedges were planted in the back planter in the 1950s. Then they were removed but not totally in roughly the 1970s in favor of rose bushes. Well they keep coming back.
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Had it in a backyard.
I cut it down to ground level, sprayed it with water hose to expose more roots and painted them with diesel, burned, painted with diesel, burned, etc. -
Very well said Nate.
first, I have no problem using magic to eliminate or reduce raw labor… it gives us time to think. this is not all about measuring…
I think where we lost it is when it became so easy to run a random traverse and just tie in and set Corners. Hacking a hole in the brush and then leaping out to clear area, we miss crucial evidence… and make it hard/expensive to mark the lines, not just the end points.
Remember the Ring Ring “hey Joe, come out tomorrow, I need my property lines surveyed”.
In the Good Old Days the Surveyor would start at a Corner Monument and run down the lines, or on a close offset. He was able to SEE signs of occupation and Perhaps line monuments that we had no clue were there.
The Clients and Land Owners don’t really give a damn about corner locations, they want to know where the Property Lines are!
We sidestep that Need and Desire by spitting out stakes at end points that may help, but often not that much. They then rely on fence builders to mark the line, hopefully at least they use our monuments. 🙂PS: I started surveying in 1970, random traverse was the rule then. when I was in Oregon timber country I did some marking and posting for timber cuts now and again, running right down the darn lines, a whole other world…
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Dave Karoly, post: 346624, member: 94 wrote: I have a privit problem
At least 3 of you guys have the same problem: you’re misspelling privet.
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