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OK, small town, and GIS, and LS
1.) GLO sets section corners in 1840.
2.) Town grows up, with various surveys, most everything is done by measuring record, from something, ie (1320, 660, 330,) and nobody bothers to calibrate their compass, to figure out the correct declination.
Corners are set, and fences are built, and emotions are attached.3.) Now, I come along, and tie into monuments, I go and shoot all the rebar, pipes, bed rails, fences, gun barrels, and fishing rods used as monuments through the years. Also, I shoot all the roads, and creeks, and many houses. In essence, I have built my own mini GIS.
Now, I FIND all kinds of discrepancies. The W C1/16 is 50′ too far west. An axle. The C1/4 is computed, out in the middle of the town square. NOT monumented.
Do I demand that all these sleeping dogs, WAKE UP, and (God Forbid!) MOVE back to their correct locations?
Or, Do I follow RICHARD SCHAUT, and yield to EVERYTHING that is very old? Or, how about writing descriptions to WHERE everybody is, and telling everybody to get NEW descriptions, TO WHERE THEY ARE, (at present) and make everybody file quiet title, to get the title problems resolved?
Well, the GIS folks are EVENTUALLY going to TIE it all into a common Cadastre, and what system are THEY going to follow….
Would somebody please tell me HOW to SURVEY??? A cookie cutter answer, that FITS ALL PROBLEMS.
Thank you!
(Please, don’t tell me to go to He!!)
🙂
Should I post this under humor?
What are we gonna do? You know, many “Surveyors” coming into the “field” (The field of Land Surveying, in a generic sense, not necessarily literal, but literal sometimes, ((to even talk about it, we have to define our own terms!)) And they ONLY know how to “Yield to Everything” and, other only know how to REJECT everything without a pedigree, and DIRECT history to the GLO surveys.
Help, the train has run away, jumped tracks, and now, somebody has wondered what the ruckus was, and they have hired me, to tell them the truth! What is truth?
Nate
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19 Replies
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That is why the manual is more than a one page definition of surveying.
“As I began to discover my own truth and endeavored to possess it with clarity, I became more and more alienated from that which my companions held, or professed to hold.”
Juan GoytisoloTake two poles down to your favorite fishing hole and stop over thinking what you can do in your sleep.
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Nate, the answer you’re looking for is, “it depends”…No, actually it’s 42.
Just kidding. Sometimes all you can do is locate and show what is there. Then on the same sheet of paper show what was ‘supposed’ to be there and make sure your client and any interested adjoiners are aware of the discrepancies. You know there are many reasons we’re not respected and not all of them are our fault.
Hope that helps a little.
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Does your state have provisions for doing an “Assessors Plat”?
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Um
The assessor does them all the time….
(I don’t really know what you are refering to…., but our assessor does them, and also sometimes calls them NOT a legal document)
N
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are these properties metes & bounds descrips, or are plats actually involved? If plats are, then yes, sounds like an assessors plat would be a good candidate here. Otherwise, it sounds like lands were conveyed by fraudulent surveys when the existing GLO corners were in (and presumably usable). if the surveys are/were considered erroneous / fraudulent, acquiescence would not apply. Sounds like lawyers are gonna have to get involved…:-P
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Every deed has to hit the dirt eventually. It sounds like some of your deeds hit the dirt decades ago.
It’s folly to now try to “move” everyone to the mathematically correct location.
This has nothing to do with Richard Schaut.
This has to do with established monuments which you have no authority to disregard.
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> Every deed has to hit the dirt eventually. It sounds like some of your deeds hit the dirt decades ago.
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> It’s folly to now try to “move” everyone to the mathematically correct location.
>
> This has nothing to do with Richard Schaut.
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> This has to do with established monuments which you have no authority to disregard.Ah, this post does me ole Irish heart proud.
Thanks, Dave.
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Arrgggg…
But the Senior line vs Junior Monument…the Senior Survey (with plat) vs the Intent…he said…they said…THIS IS MINE…the GIS map on file on the internet…Old Fred’s plat…Young Nate’s plat…fences…stobs…harmony based on that old ‘beer leg’ county surveyor’s work…
NATE!…THAT IS WHY YOU SHOULD BE MAKING THE BIG BUCKS…
Your Friend,
DDSM -
It’s not up to the GISers, it’s up to the surveyors.
The GISers only track the name and the fact of ownership and the tax stuff, and their map is a pretty picture that’s up to the surveyors to fix.
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> Every deed has to hit the dirt eventually. It sounds like some of your deeds hit the dirt decades ago.
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> It’s folly to now try to “move” everyone to the mathematically correct location.
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> This has nothing to do with Richard Schaut.
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> This has to do with established monuments which you have no authority to disregard.Yeah but the problem doesnt reside in mathematically correct locations, it has to do with whether lands were conveyed of which were actually legally able to be conveyed (i.e., you cannot convey that which you do not own). if the surveys / monuments in question were on that level of erroneous, than the ‘established’ monuments mean nothing. The only way to quiet the title would be through the courts. I am assuming we’re talking about lands more aliquot than the GLO subdivisions. I think a chain-of-title search is going to have to be employed here to determine if intent may have conflicted with legal ownership.
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Where any Deed description might be located is a question of fact.
Physical Evidence generally is superior to record evidence.
This Beer Leg Survey problem solution was brought to you buy, Junior Incorporated, bending Senior Lines since 1850 and by Stretch-a-Fence Company, you move ’em we stretch ’em.
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> Where any Deed description might be located is a question of fact.
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> Physical Evidence generally is superior to record evidence.
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> This Beer Leg Survey problem solution was brought to you buy, Junior Incorporated, bending Senior Lines since 1850 and by Stretch-a-Fence Company, you move ’em we stretch ’em.LOL – clearly Texas corporations :clap:
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> It’s not up to the GISers, it’s up to the surveyors.
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> The GISers only track the name and the fact of ownership and the tax stuff, and their map is a pretty picture that’s up to the surveyors to fix.Please, thank you, drive around. After living this day in and day out for years the only truism is that NOTHING ALWAYS ‘holds’. GIS has made a complete mess of the public perception of property rights in the U.S. On line tax maps are for the most part taken as gospel by Joe Blow. This is almost always, invariably, a bad thing. Boundary lines are subject to, and DO, change. The public, due to ignorance, and surveyors, due to their ever longing for fast and lasting truisms, only exasperates the confusion. There is no case law nor ‘rule of thumb’ that can cover every situation a surveyor will run across in a typical surveying career. The profession seems to be trying to move in a direction that denies this simple fact. The debate in favor of such a movement is one that I just don’t understand. There are times when monuments are ‘all wet’ just the same as there are times when directions are ‘all wet’. Our discretion usually rules the day. And when it doesn’t, that is why the lawyers and the courts exist. In a way, you could look at it all like we get the easy part of the process. Dealing with the clients, yeah, that can really suck sometimes. But, never the less, our roles ARE limited in scope.
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Now that you know that there are errors in your land records, try to find your state laws that define what you do to CORRECT THE RECORDS, NOT MOVE THE PROPERTY LINES!!!@
Remember Black’s Law Dictionary definition of Alienation?
Alienation
In real property law, the transfer of the property and possession of lands, tenaments, or other things, from one person to another. The term is particularly applied to absolute conveyances of real property. The voluntary and complete transfer from one person to another. Disposition by will. Every mode of passing realty by the act of the party, as distinguished from passing it by the operation of law. See also Restraint on alienation.Restraint on Alienation
A provision in an instrument of conveyance which prohibits the grantee from selling or transfering the property which is the subject of the conveyance. Most such restraints are unenforceable as against public policy and the law’s policy of free alienability of land. See restrictive covenant.This definition applies all across the US. Your state laws will provide the necessary guidance regarding the process to be followed by the surveyor.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Richard Schaut
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“The W C1/16 is 50′ too far west. An axle. The C1/4 is computed, out in the middle of the town square. NOT monumented. “
If the C 1/4 is computed, so must all the 1/16’s you are calling “off”. So who are you to say that the found monument isn’t best evidence of the first location of the c 1/4?
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Natester
Just a point of clarification. Those GIS folks can do little more than put in a parcel by a deed or by a survey plat. The problems you describe are already there. It is not their doing that creates these sorts of troubles. They merely show up glaringly on a screen.
The problems that many attribute to GIS are actually problems inherent in a system that has a mix of attorney deeds, land owner deeds, and tracts created without the use of a Land Surveyor. And sometimes these even have errors and problems.
But O’Roly actually gave you the most direct answer. The deeds have hit the dirt at this point. Should you follow disrupt the entire town over some errant markers used in the beginning?
Look up the word harmony. The courts like that word. Land owners like that word. I like that word.
Deral
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I got that “hit the dirt” thing from my boss.
We were discussing a property I was surveying and I was relating how I found all the corners set shortly after the Deed that created the parcel and how they were slightly off perfection and he said “every Deed has to hit the dirt eventually” which I thought was way better than any way I’d ever thought of it or tried to explain it before.
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David
I like it and I’m going to borrow it and use it again.:cat: I borrowed another real good one from my buddy Phil Stevenson. “The proof is in the dirt”..Just like yours it makes a lot of sense.
His saying came when GPS was still pretty new to most surveyors and when he was testing out equipment. I took it to mean that statistics are nice but repeatability in the ground is paramount.
Deral
PS_I will send you royalties when ever I use it though.
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How many bodies/land owners are in this small town ? 1000, 5000, 10000, 20,000 ?
Using all the variety of corners, potential corners, goat stakes and pipes, can everybody get the acreage due them ?? even if 50′ over from where you think it should be ?
Is there any “set of descriptions” that better fit the world; e.g. if ya toss this one and that, ignore GLO location (hold the size) for a moment, do the individual pieces of the puzzle come together ? If so what is the approximate percentage of the whole “correct” even if 50′ (or any other number) offset ?
The “best” answer in my opinion is to create the “plat” from the deeds and then rotated and translated to the corners. Like all deeds, some fit together better than others. Put together the most that fit. Squeeze in those that don’t fit well, an excellent use for color and hatching, and then you have the really bad outliers.
Depending on number and who is paying for what determines your next set of moves….
have a public meeting recommending ALL land owners attend to see the problems. Then new deeds based on puzzle plat, “massive” property line agreement based on puzzle plat or something similar. Hopefully only a few would not be in a harmonious position and hopefully some accord couold be struck.
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