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Official City map vs iron pins
Please help! What dictates the actual Right-of-Way in a city? The official city map, dated early 1900’s says a 60′ ROW. However, there are iron pipes on our road that indicate a 50′ ROW. The city council minutes show precedent that if there were changes in ROW (or offsetting the ROW, or vacating a street, etc) that it was voted on by the city council, and the historical minutes show that the ROW on this street was never changed. So, which is correct, the pins or the official map? Please note that I have consulted with/hired 2 different surveyors, and they disagree on which is correct. I have tried to find case-law to answer this, and I have been unable, so far, to find anything. Can anyone help me with this issue?
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48 Replies
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If the early 1900’s map shows the ROW to be 60′ and there is no recorded action vacating portions to make it 50′, the early 1900’s map controls, despite where the pipes are.
That’s pretty clear, you can’t claim adverse possession against a governmental agency.
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Were the pipes marking the lot boundaries, that resulted in a fifty foot right of way, set by the original surveyor? I’m not sure that a judge would ignore original monuments over plat dimensions. I was involved with a survey where the best evidence of the road’s location came from monuments set shortly after the first lot on the block was occupied. It was a fact that the original surveyor did not set the monuments that ended up controlling the RoW width. In that case, however, there was no physical evidence of an alternative road width. If you have a hodge-podge of monuments marking fifty or sixty foot widths along the RoW in question, I doubt the same conclusion would be drawn. This would be an expensive survey if you contacted me, as I’d want to scour both sides of the road in a search for any evidence dating back to the original layout of the block. It’s likely that you won’t find a definitive answer and I’d be skeptical of those who profess to have one.
Even if you payed thousands of dollars to have a professional surveyor gather detailed evidence that supports a fifty foot RoW, the particular judge might ignore it and go with the sixty foot width. I doubt a higher court would hear an appeal to this.
If I lived on such a street, I would design and build expensive structures with the assumption that the sixty foot RoW holds. I’d hedge my bet by openly occupying (maybe a concrete pad for my bird bath) right up to the fifty foot RoW line. If resolving this was paramount, I’d play politics before I litigated it.
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I’m curious as to how deep the lots are adjoining the RW. For instance are they supposed to be 200 feet deep but monumented at 205 feet?
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Thank you, and I am not trying to adversely possess any land. I am only trying to find out what, in the end, legally determines the right-of-way/point of beginning. Do you happen to know of a court case, proving that indeed, the city map is what should, in the end, be followed? Or maybe a surveying textbook stating such?
As far as who put in the pins – there is really no way to know. In fact, they are even off a bit, so may not even be pins. The original surveyor did not put them in, I would think, because they are not on every block. And, some are where old buildings and fences were at one time. Some could really just be old iron fence posts that were cut down or something.
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If the city map was filed back in the early 1900’s and there is nothing to indicate that the pipes found are original, the map is going to prevail as it would have to have been adopted by the city before being filed.
When I mentioned adverse possession, my intent was that you can’t take public lands, or change the mapped of make a conversion from 60′ to 50′ without the official action of the city to abandon the 10′ difference.
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Thank you for your help. However, I still desperately need some kind of proof that the city map prevails, in order to show the others on my street. Is there a textbook that might have this info? Or a previous court ruling? Otherwise, it looks like this might get escalated to a lawsuit, and I am trying to help prevent that.
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Consider the possibility that you may not be looking at the correct map, or, you are looking a map that superseded a previous version, maybe with a different street name or something like that.
For what it is worth, my street is 60 feet wide to allow for sidewalks on both sides. Other streets in the neighborhood are 50 feet wide and do not have sidewalks. Your mileage may vary.
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Fact is that this sort of situation, while not unheard of, is not particularly common. And there are good legal arguments to be made on both sides. Personally, I lean to the stated 60 foot width, but there are a lot of local details that could change my mind.
I’d be looking at some of the things already mentioned by others plus what width other similar area roads, dedicated around the same time, used.
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We have professional surveyors involved. They all agree it is the correct map, the correct road, and that the right-of-way shown on the map is 60′. The disagreement, is about if the map or the iron pipes (that may or may not be old survey markers) rule the final outcome.
Honestly, I do not care so much which way this falls. I am just trying to keep peace on my street and in my town, and need some hard proof of the correct answer to try to resolve the situation. -
The hard proof is provided in the public record. Different ROW widths are documented, especially in cities for different reasons, arterial streets will be wider, feeder streets might not be as wide and residential streets typically are 50′ wide.
The map will control, unless the city was the grantor that sole lots along a described 50′ street.
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Don’t get hung up on case law and given judge could rule differently. You have prevented the fact of what the city map has established the road width over 100 years ago and stated there is no official record of that being changed by any official action of the city. Anything contrary to the 60′ width would have to be proven by recorded documents.
The answer lies in the specifics, based on the public record. That is exactly why deeds are filed. Do not disregard the fact that the pipes indicating a 50′ width could be set on a local customary offset.
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“I still desperately need some kind of proof that the city map prevails, in order to show the others on my street.”
“and need some hard proof of the correct answer”
You will not find hard proof because it doesn’t exist. It’s likely that you could search your state’s case law and find examples of a judge holding the irons and another holding the map distance. One of the most difficult tasks of a surveyor is managing their client’s false assumptions of boundaries and boundary law. A surveyor gathers evidence, assigns weight to the evidence, then forms an opinion based in part on their knowledge of how a judge should interpret the same evidence. Your situation is less about math and more about available evidence. We have nine supreme court justices who consistently disagree with one another about the relevant facts and evidence in any given case. It’s to be expected that your two surveyors have interpreted the evidence differently.
Tell your neighbors that there’s not a neat and tidy resolution to this. If you go forward with litigation, be skeptical of the attorney that tells you it’s a slam dunk. If you’re capable of searching Google Scholar, Justia, or similar, search just as hard for counter examples to your preferred outcome. If you’re leaning toward litigation, be sure it’s not due to pride or ego. Calculate the value of the five foot strip of land and compare it to the actual cost of attorney fees (I’d multiply the attorney’s estimate by 1.5 or 2) and whatever value you assign to years of off-and-on stress and many hours of time that could be better spent doing just about anything else.
Above all, be honest with yourself and have the strength to admit that, through no fault of your own, you’re in a situation that is unlikely to be resolved, quickly, cheaply, or in a way you and your neighbors view as fair.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by murphy.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by
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The actual right-of-way should be determined primarily by the physical evidence on the ground, such as the iron pipes you mentioned, rather than solely relying on the outdated official city map from the early 1900s. However, if it can be proven that the iron pipes marking a 50′ ROW were originally placed due to a major surveying error, significantly deviating from the intended 60′ ROW shown on the official map, then those erroneous pipe monuments should likely be disregarded. Longstanding physical monuments generally control over plat/deed descriptions when there are discrepancies, but this deference to monuments does not apply if it can be demonstrated the original monuments were placed due to a gross error in their intended location, such as being off by 10 feet or more, In such cases of major original monumental errors, the pipe markers could be rejected, and the ROW should revert to following the 60′ dimension specified on the official city map/plat. To make this determination, further investigation would be needed into the circumstances around how/why the 50′ pipe markers were originally set. If no reasonable explanation for such a 10′ deviation from the platted 60′ ROW can be found, then the pipes were likely erroneously placed and should be disregarded in favor of the official map records.However, if there is evidence the 50′ pipes were purposefully set to modify the ROW at that time through proper processes, even if reasons are unclear now, then those longstanding physical monuments could take precedence over the plat dimensions.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by JMS66.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by
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I’m curious. How will every ones’ life change if the ROW is 50′ instead of 60′. Is there some huge benefit that you will enjoy that you currently don’t enjoy if the ROW is 50′. What do the people who want to fight this in court expect to gain? Typically everyone lives on their property the same way whether the ROW is larger or smaller. Will they do something very different depending on the outcome of this situation?
This official city map, does it also show the depth of the lots adjoining this ROW? If so are you going to try to argue that you should have more land than what is described in your deed? If there is any question as to the monuments being the genuine original monuments set to mark this property, it is very, very unlikely for a judge to rule they hold. You describe them as questionable. Perhaps you would be better served by finding case law relating to original monuments as this aspect has been ruled on much more often and more definitively than the ROW aspect of your question.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by lurker.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by
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Who wants a wider ROW?
If no one wants that (the city); then petition for vacation and clean it up.
It usually takes four meetings to get it done: You will need to have a surveyor (sounds like that’s done) prepare a map including all utilities, improvements, driveways, ect. Then inform all stake holders, get them to sign off and it’s done after the city approves it.
Lots of leg work but you can do most of it.
That is the best way to resolve this.
120 years of researching city meeting minutes is a heavy lift. are you very sure this vacation never happened?
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If a survey is filed in a government office that interacts with the agency that assesses real estate taxes, it’s possible the value of the property will be changed to reflect the area shown on the survey. The area currently in use for real estate taxes could be pretty accurate or just a wild guess. In any case there is a good chance of some change in the property tax.
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What dictates the actual Right-of-Way in a city?
The answer to your question Is in how, when and by who the ROW was created.
You need to do the research.
PLS NJ & NY, PP NJ -
@Dan-Dunn is absolutely correct.
Was the road R/W created prior to the “city map” by an order of the county commission or city council? And then later monumented on the ground? Hereabouts, roads created by the county were monumented along the centerline only and as the area was settled and densified, others came along and monumented the R/W. Sometimes correctly, sometimes not. The original R/W location and width holds even when subsequent monumentation runs contrary.
In the same vein, was the road created by a series of deeds from landowners to the public and later monumented by others? The answer would be in the wording of the deeds.
Or, is this “city map” actually a recorded subdivision plat that created the road along with the lots and blocks along the road? And are the monuments original… set by the surveyor who constructed the plat? If that’s the case, your state may have case law that will give you guidance. But it has to be court cases from your state.
See the attached document “Street monumented different than plat-Boundary Control and Legal Principles 3rd Add by Brown.pdf”, for one author’s take on this situation.
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I’ve posted this before. Supreme Court of Iowa held survey on the ground controls over plat. A couple notations are important.
1) Court held that the monuments accepted by the owners although unknown if they were original were considered as such.
It is true that there is no specific identification by any witness who saw the stakes at the time of the original survey. But it is not legally necessary that the proof of the identity should be in that form.
2) The same laws that apply to the owners apply to the city with respect to width of street.
If the monuments upon the ground are controlling as to the property owners, there is nothing in this record to indicate that they are not likewise controlling upon the city. In this view, the mistake or discrepancy, if any, has operated equitably upon all.
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The disagreement, is about if the map or the iron pipes (that may or may not be old survey markers) rule the final outcome.
That is a decision for the judge. If the city isn’t using the extra 10′, they could vacate it. I am not sure if you could do a quiet title for the entire street, but perhaps you could for your parcel. But, if you are fighting city hall, their pockets might be deeper than yours.
Honestly, I do not care so much which way this falls. I am just trying to keep peace on my street and in my town, and need some hard proof of the correct answer to try to resolve the situation.
Have you asked the city, public works, engineer, etc?
For the group: Could a quiet title action be useful here.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.
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