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Hold the monuments?
Here is an interesting situation to ponder.
Working on a project that requires we reproduce the location of a Control Access Interstate highway. The road was built back in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s.
We found most of the corners called for in the plans. The found corners have every appearance of being exactly where they were originally set.
The problem is several of the markers are more than 10 feet from their computed location.
This leaves a couple of competing ways to view things.
Do we go with the theory that the monuments have been set and accepted by all involved for 20+ years.
Or, do we hold the computed locations of where the monuments were supposed to be originally set. Note that during this time in this area contractors had the responsibility of setting the markers and few if any had PLS’s on staff to oversee the work. To say the original setting is suspect, is being generous.
Keep in mind that everyone in the area (including DOT) has accepted the current position as correct for quite a long time.
What say you?
Larry P
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51 Replies
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I say hold them. If you have no reason to believe they have been disturb that is. Out of curiosity though, you said several were out more than 10 feet, do the majority of the monuments found check with in a reasonable amount (say 0.2′ feet)?
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Since They Were Not Set By The Original Surveyor, NO!
The highway itself is the monument. Hold the highway.
Don’t hold the fence either, most were 1′ inside the right of way.
If you completely survey adjacent parcels and find they held some monuments, still NO! Adjacent prperty goes to the correct right of way. The State has no need for additional land, nor claim to incorrect monuments outside the ROW, nor will they yield to incorrect monuments within the ROW. They have what they took, no more, no less.
No one can take an interest in land against the Sovereign. In turn the Sovereign cannot take more land without additional compensation.
Paul in PA
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Since They Were Not Set By The Original Surveyor, NO!
> The highway itself is the monument. Hold the highway.
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> Don’t hold the fence either, most were 1′ inside the right of way.
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> If you completely survey adjacent parcels and find they held some monuments, still NO! Adjacent prperty goes to the correct right of way. The State has no need for additional land, nor claim to incorrect monuments outside the ROW, nor will they yield to incorrect monuments within the ROW. They have what they took, no more, no less.
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> Paul in PAI hear what you are saying Paul but what about the neighbors who for more than two decades have been relying on the monument as being the corner? Are they just screwed if the math tells me the “true” corner falls inside the rock garden they’ve been sculpting for years?
Larry P
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They Can Continue Gardening Because They Can
Those are limited access highways. The access is limited by the fence, not the boundary line. They may mow to the fence, heck they can paint the fence. They just don’t own to the fence.
Show the monument, show the boundary line, show the garden, show the fence.
Why would you want to pay more property tax on land you use for free?
Paul in PA
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Most interstates have the land taken (acquired) by plans, the roads are built, and virtually the last thing done is set the monuments.
As you said it is frequently the case that the contractor sets the monuments – probably based on what they thought was a wood hub set by the highway department.
If you can reconcile the plans with the majority of the monuments, hold the plans. The monuments are in the wrong place – simple as that.
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> The problem is several of the markers are more than 10 feet from their computed location.
>Might they be witnesses?
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> If you can reconcile the plans with the majority of the monuments, hold the plans. The monuments are in the wrong place – simple as that.Playing devils advocate for a moment here Dave. If we take that approach to its logical conclusion, I use pure math and ignore all the monuments. None will check to the gnats backside. Some will be pretty close but none will be exactly mathematically where they are computed.
How does that approach differ from being a deed staker and creating the virtual pin-cushions we all love to hate?
Larry P
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> Might they be witnesses?E,
In a word, No.
Larry P
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Well, in this case the “deed staker” was supposed to do it right based on the math of the highway plans and didn’t do it right. So it is correctable.
As to “how close is close enough”- that is the age old argument. Since the monuments are probably 6″ square, you’ve got a pretty fair margin of slop that will still hit the monument. I would not chisel a crows foot onto it.
There is one case where the monument may need to be held. If a division of adjacent property was done after the monuments were set and a side line terminated at the monument, then that monument would be a side line corner for a pair of adjacent lots, but it is still not a highway boundary.
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I agree with Paul on this
The highway IS the monument. I’ve actually watched laborers with an auger pull up a stake, begin a hole, hit a rock or root and move to a more convenient location. I’ve seen monuments on one side of the fence and the clearly marked stake and hub on the other. I WOULD show the location of the monuments but also indicate why I reject the LOCATION of the monument.
Andy
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The important items are “Federal Highway” and if the 10ft is stationing or r/w width
My story:
In the 70’s while staking a property in Texarkana around Robison Road we staked boundary for storage buildings using I-30 Plans and Property descriptions and found monuments that matched
In late 80’s during a new property transfer it was noticed SWC on r/w was not correct and an existing r/w monument was in wrong place from Design Plans
New boundary cut thru concrete block office on property at near 45° angle and the Feds ordered removal from r/w
The owners cut the overlapping portion from the building.
Saw the same thing happen when an attached carport wound up being sliced at a 30° angle on US 59 at Lanier. Owner sawed that overlapping portion off and the rear of his vehicle is not under roof anymore.
I would recommend notifying the State DOT office and have their r/w specialist answer that for you.
It really depends upon if the highway is loosing r/w or not.
0.02
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Use Pure Math And Ignore All The Monuments? Very Possible
The understanding is that none were set by the original surveyor, so ignoring all of them is not a problem. However sometimes they did get it right because original stakes may still have been in place.
Consider the fence, 1 foot inside the boundary, do you think the post driving truck backed up to each post location, or did he simply drive down the line with wheels and outriggers on adjacent parcels knocking everything down on the way.
Quite often there were temporary grading easements of all kinds of widths, they had to be staked at one time. Something at the work limits was more likely to remain than anything else. That might account for a monument 10′ off.
In order to hold the highway I do not mean you must go into harms way and locate EPs or lane joints. An ortho rectified photo can get you closer than finding and locating all the nonsense monuments. Drainage structures get installed long before the pavement. I have located 70 year roads with precision from drainage alone, because stationing it the hardest thing to do from EPs and curves.
Be careful with the pure math, highway plans can have errors. What they do show is the intent.
Paul in PA
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I was involved in a project in which the R/W was taken during the tape/transit days and never built. Fast forward 30-40 years, the state decides to build it but alas, many adjustments had to be made to make it fit. Were there C/L monuments set that can be tied into to check? Are the corners supposed to also monument crossing property lines? If so, at least in PA, properties were rarely surveyed prior to construction. Are you looking at an as-built? Was additional R/W taken after the plan was adopted? I would do a little investigation with the R/W-Survey department for the DOT.
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Mr. Harris says:
> I would recommend notifying the State DOT office and have their r/w specialist answer that for you.
>I have to agree with his suggestion, but Texas and NY are not where you are.
In NY, most State Highways are taken as station and offset from a random baseline. The official line is the right of way per the taking and the monuments are to guide the workers mowing the grass; the monuments are NOT necessarily marking the right of way. To make it worse, almost all traces of the baseline are within the new road, so unless you happen to be surveying the new line before construction, you wind up wriggling onto the monuments that may, or may not be where the map says they are. Recently, the DOT has started to get an as-built of the monuments from the construction surveyor, showing the offsets to the theoretical location, so it is better for the newer takings, but most highways are a mess.
But that is NY – your situation may differ.
Ken
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Most interstate highways have center line monuments every 1000 feet and usually there are reference monuments on each side of those C/L monuments set inside the ROW fence. If a reference monument has been set inside the ROW, it is not a ROW monument, you can use it to locate C/L and from there locate the ROW at that station. Causes problems when the paddle boards are gone and a surveyor comes along and holds a C/L reference monument as the ROW because they have not looked at the appropriate ROW maps. Several times down through the years I have found C/L reference monuments used as ROW, the paddle boards were long gone but a look at the ROW map would quickly identify the monument and what it was intended to represent, when notified, ODOT quickly replaced missing paddle boards identifying the monument.
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Culverts and bridges are monuments, too
I’m amazed at how well culverts and bridges normally fit the plans much better than r-o-w markers set by “whomever”.
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There is a difference..
in the questionable location of a boundary (survey issue) and the location of commonly acquiesced occupation (title issue) that doesn’t “fit” the boundary. Don’t be guilty of confusing the two. Locate the boundary and let the sovereign duke it out with the adjoiners.
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Since They Were Not Set By The Original Surveyor, NO!
The highway took from their land by a document, right? If this document called for the monuments, then the monuments could hold.
All this reliance on the monuments stuff… people rely on monuments they erroneously believe to be their monuments and it may not change their ownership…
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Culverts and bridges are monuments, too
I think that is the correct notion. I would be interested in trying to reproduce the centerline of the highway and looking for how well it fit the construction and right of way plans.
Sometimes the R/W monuments around here are within several feet of where you expect to find them and sometimes you find them all thrown into a ditch in a pile.
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There is a difference..
How many boundary lines are there? Do you just show them the choices or try to solve it and show THE BOUNDARY? If the land surveyor can’t study and understand the law what purpose do they provide to society?
Folks if we are going to reduce surveying to staking out the math of a deed our days are numbered. Just about anyone with some math knowledge will be able to do that with their phone in a few years. If we are not going to honor the original markers set by a surveyor 20 years ago (and used and relied upon by the landowners) why set markers at all for the next surveyor down the road to reject because the math ain’t perfect.
Apply the law, set your tools aside until you’ve determined where the boundary has been established by the law. Yeah, IF the boundary hasn’t been established then you can look to more precisely setting out the math and calls in the deed.
The worst thing you can do is stake a new line away from the legally established boundary line (mark the boundary where it legally ain’t!)!
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