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Don't blame land surveyors for new FEMA flood zones
The following is a letter from the Cape Cod Times. Good work Don (Foggy)
October 18, 2013
The FEMA maps are coming, and the impact on Cape Cod homeowners will be costly to many.A land survey is required to determine the flood zone impact for suspect properties. The surveyor must transfer an elevation from a known point and bring it to the property, and then verify the structure’s floor elevations as well as highest and lowest elevations adjacent to the house. This is time-consuming and carries a huge liability with it. If we are wrong we may be held responsible for damages.
The new FEMA flood maps are a warning to those in the affected areas. Your property is at risk to flood.
Do not blame land surveyors for the new maps; we didn’t ask for them and we didn’t create them. This can be a difficult and expensive process, and we assume a large liability for doing these surveys.
Anyone with questions should contact their local land surveyor to determine if their property is affected by the new flood maps
Donald T. Poole
Brewster
The writer, a professional land surveyor, is president of Outermost Land Survey Inc.
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14 Replies
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:good:
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I don’t live in a flood zone. I even bought a FIRM map to check.
What I don’t get is if the location has been known to flood in the past why do people continue to build in that area? I know it may be a desirable location, but are the risks worth it?
Just asking.
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I worked for a number of camp owners on the barrier beach. Being in CBRS and mostly V zones, they could not acquire new flood insurance if they elected to rebuild after devastation and a claim. This policy should have extended into the A zone decades ago.
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The Wise Man Built His House Upon The Rock, Matthew 7:24-27
The foolish man built his house upon the sand.
Matthew 7:24-27
New International Version (NIV)The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
FEMA is one way our government wants to protect the fools from themselves.
The above is found in a simple verse a child learns in Sunday School.
I cannot post a U-tube link to it because all versions I found today go well beyond the Bible Verses.
“But, what is Sunday School?” the foolish man asks.
Paul in PA
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Okay so now I had to go look those up! 🙂
“V” = Coastal flood zone with velocity hazard.
“A” = No Base flood elevations determined.
As I understand it, and I’m probably wrong, if they rebuilt after a flood in the same location they can’t get flood insurance? Kinda makes sense. Who would want to insure them?
If they were in “A” then that makes them ineligible to insure – correct?
@Paul: Well said sir.
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The Wise Man Built His House Upon The Rock, Matthew 7:24-27
I disagree, FEMA has made it harder and more expensive to build in A, AE and V zones, then you have a yearly fee on top of that for insurance. If anything, FEMA has discouraged the building in hazardous areas. Prior to FEMA/NFIP, people just built where ever they wanted with no elevation guidelines and sometimes not even the knowledge they were building in a high risk area. Most of owners now that are getting blasted with outrageous flood insurance rates, due to Biggert Waters Act, own the homes that were built PreFIRM. The homes built properly PostFIRM should sustain little or no damage during a 100-year flood.
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> If they were in “A” then that makes them ineligible to insure – correct?
>No, it just means they need to have a BFE determined by a CE (in CA anyways) so the insurance risk assessment can be made by insurers, AND, so that the local building agency can determine and enforce the level of construction dictated by that agency’s flood plane ordinances. For example, in one county here in N CA, the building department for the county only requires a structure be placed above the BFE as part of the permit process, however a city located in that same county requires all construction be placed 2′ above the BFE. The difference being is that the city has worked towards a higher NFIP rating which has resulted in lower insurance rates for its residents.
The same structure built to the same height above the BFE will get lower insurance in the above city than if it was built to the same height above BFE in the county. Simply because of the efforts the city made in its participation in the NFIP.
As a note to surveyors, one of the things than can help a community NFIP rating is having high order class of benchmarks located in or near the community. Something to consider should you get the chance to bend your community flood plane manager’s ear.
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I Believe It Is After 3 Claims That You Cannot Rebuild
FEMA has to buy you out. Good luck with a fair price.
Having had a claim why would you want to build exactly as you did before? Extra elevation can be much cheaper than higher insurance.
Paul in PA
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The Wise Man Built His House Upon The Rock, Matthew 7:24-27
FEMA has made it harder and more expensive to build in A, AE and V zones, I agree.
then you have a yearly fee on top of that for insurance. Build it as you should and the fee is rather low.
If anything, FEMA has discouraged the building in hazardous areas. I agree.
Prior to FEMA/NFIP, people just built where ever they wanted with no elevation guidelines and sometimes not even the knowledge they were building in a high risk area. Therein lies the problem.
Most of owners now that are getting blasted with outrageous flood insurance rates, due to Biggert Waters Act, own the homes that were built PreFIRM. High risk high insurance, why are you surprised?
The homes built properly PostFIRM should sustain little or no damage during a 100-year flood. Not true. There is always the possibility of a 500 year flood. I saw Diane, classed as a 500 year storm, devestate the Delaware River in 1955. In some areas 18″ of rain fell in 24 hours. Diane destruction was even worst because it covered the same areas that Hurricane Connie saturated 1 week earlier.
I saw the Mississippi River almost to the arch in Saint Louis in 1993, after 60 plus days of rain upriver.
A home above the 100 year flood elevation can be destroyed by a 10 year storm under unusual conditions.
To put it all in perspective if you live near any large water source you are much more likely to be flooded out than hitting the lottery. People buy lottery tickets but do not want to buy flood insurance.
Paul in PA
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The Wise Man Built His House Upon The Rock, Matthew 7:24-27
>High risk high insurance, why are you surprised?
I’m not surprised, but the people who own these homes should be. For example, when the owners bought these homes, they likely were not required to obtain an elevation certificate (it was not required prior to 2012 to get an elevation certificate when you got flood insurance for a PreFIRM house) and were told their flood insurance would be ~$1000 a year. Does that sound like someone who is being made aware they are buying a “high risk” property? Probably a typical quote now for a substandard A Zone home would be $10-15K, and a substandard V zone house would be $30-60K range. And, we are not talking about Gulf front mansions here, most of home I’ve seen affected are 1960ish small homes that might sell for $60-80K. How does a $10-15K premium make sense?
Basically, FEMA is broke, and the government’s idea to fix it is to take a small minority of policy holders and raise their flood insurance rates up to 6000% to make up the difference. Sorry, but it’s not going to work. People are already saying they’ll walk away from their homes before they pay $15 or $30 or $60 thousand bucks for flood insurance, so any revenue increases from this should be slight, and it will probably lead to another “housing disaster” in coastal communities.
I heard someone say on the radio that FEMA’s $25 Billion shortfall is nothing compared to property value this law will vaporize.
> The homes built properly PostFIRM should sustain little or no damage during a 100-year flood.
>Not true. There is always the possibility of a 500 year flood.
I’m aware of this, and that’s why I specifically said “100-year flood in my post your quoted. All modern building requirements are based on 100-year floods. In fact, if you live in a 500 year flood zone (B or X(shaded)) you are not even required to elevate your home or purchase flood insurance. In a 500 year flood, all bets are off. I know 500 year floods can happen, but I also think it’s not wise to base public policy on events that statistically won’t happen but once every 16 generations.
>People buy lottery tickets but do not want to buy flood insurance.
I think people do want to buy flood insurance, in fact, most people who live in As and Vs have to buy it if they carry a mortgage.
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Very smart advice:'(
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Let me give alittle different look at it.
I practice on eastern Long Island, NY. Look at the map of Long Island were the two forks come together then go south to the bay. On the south side of the bay is a barrier island.
We have two X Zones.
VE Zones = 3′ waves with velocity with BFE’s.
AE Zones = 1.5′ water raising up with BFE’s.
FEMA insurses the first $250,000. If you want more insurance over $250,000 you must go to the excess market of private insurers.
Spledeus deals with people with camps. I deal with people who build/have 8000-12000 square foot summer cottages.
On the north side of the bay I am currently involved in the permitting for a project to lift, move, make FEMA and NYS (FEMA plus 2 feet) complaint, for an older 6000 square foot cottage. The owner requested a FEMA Elevation Certificate to get Flood Insurance for the cottage till it gets moved. We did the Elevation Certificate and C2a was 6′ below the BFE. C2b and C2e were 2′ below the BFE. FEMA’s quote was $5000/ year and the excess market quote for an additional $1.7 million was $74,000/year.
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sorry, most of our zones are designated, VE, AE under the new maps.
as the old maps used A# (like A9 or V15) we typically referred to the zones as A B C V.
now they kept the V and the A. the B and C have been merged to X.
all V’s are VE’s
most A’s are AE’s.
There are a few ponds that are AO and A. -
hee hee
i deal with plenty of people with big summer cottages. not too many in the 8k+ SF range, but a few. i may go back in tonight to finish off last minute revisions to a 9k house being designed by the girlfriend ( a PhD architect with NO real, professional or practical experience ).I do not know of any of my clients’ homes that are in a V zone other than the North Beach Camps. I like the rule that no new policy can be issued to these camps if they are destroyed and rebuilt. the rates that will soon be assessed will effectively make this rule because the homes in the flood plain will plummet in value and demand.
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