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Angry Client and Irrefutable evidence
We performed a survey recently in coastal Palm Beach County. The lot is less than 500′ from the called for 1/2 section corner on the north section line, except it has been paved over a few times and is now in the middle of a busy intersection. The owner and his neighbor are having a dispute, what a surprise. “His camper is parked over here..blah blah..” Upon finishing the field study of the lot I found the line in question to be plus or minus where it should be and by plus or minus I mean not the 3 feet the client is looking for. In fact, when I dug up the iron rod and cap in the back yard he asked if we had just set it there and began to try and pull it out, while I said “No we did not just set that and you cannot disturb it…” It was about 1′ deep and had shovel marks, ridiculous accusation. I found 3 out of 4 of his corners as the neighbor he is friends with had decided to pour a slab and stack a pile of junk on top of the fourth that I could not get to. The line in question is at least 2.5′ east of a chain link fence which was the presumed line. The house was located and came out not very parallel to the property lines, which I knew from having one of my guys setup on one rod and cap sighting the rear and swinging the Philadelphia rod off of the rear and front building corners. The rear corner read about 11 and the front close to 9.5. Office research found a survey from the late 70’s when the house was built and finalized with a very hard to read tie to the property line of close to 9′ with front ties that are not equal. He claims “There is no way my house is not parallel to the property line and I will not pay until it is proved otherwise.” I’ll be doing a little more work to tie in the surrounding subdivision boundary as well as section corners to the west, and I’ll be happy to cut out the 1/2 section corner under fresh pavement and blame it on our client. 🙂 Not sure if it will pay off monetarily in the future for this particular job but some owners just need to be told they don’t own what they don’t own, but I guess there is always a chance we are wrong too….
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52 Replies
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McCracker, post: 353334, member: 9299 wrote: The line in question is at least 2.5′ east of a chain link fence which was the presumed line.
Sounds like you have found the deed line well enough but what about unwritten rights? Could there be adverse possession at work here? How long has that fence stood in place?
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When someone tells me they are not going to pay, I leave and don’t come back until I see the green in my hand.
I would never cut into a concrete slab without everyone’s permission or court order.
Three monuments and connecting monuments should prove the location of the fourth and if it is heading to court, then get the approval.
0.02
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McCracker, post: 353334, member: 9299 wrote: Not sure if it will pay off monetarily in the future for this particular job but some owners just need to be told they don’t own what they don’t own, but I guess there is always a chance we are wrong too….
For some clients the only “right” answer is the one that confirms their preconceived beliefs. The only way these jobs turn out successfully for the surveyor is if he/she uses the experience to get better at detecting these types of clients and weeding them out in the first place.
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You might see if you can reverse-engineer the corners in from the house that “should be” parallel to the property lines. It would be worthwhile to find the corners that may have been set which may have been used to stake the house. I’m always suspicious that there is probably something that agrees with these obscure multiple corners, or fences that appear wrong.
Of course financial constraints might stop one from “digging” up the truth.
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McCracker, post: 353334, member: 9299 wrote: “There is no way my house is not parallel to the property line and I will not pay until it is proved otherwise.”
I personally would have boxed it up right there without another word and cut my losses. In no way could he possibly financially compensate me for the amount of aggravation he just promised to deliver when the truth uncovered does not fit in neatly with his preconceived notions. Those words put you on notice. If I were to fail to take heed, I’d have only myself to blame.
Willy -
The only other survey of the particular parcel only shows corners with bearings and distances that match the two later surveys and a proposed site plan on top of it, from the early 70’s. In this area and at the time of building most individual houses were not laid out by surveyors. I too am always suspicious that there might be some evidence that agrees with the wrong ties and fence lines but I believe in this case it is just off. The current monumentation agrees with the couple of lots around it out front and the only real missing tie is the 1/2 section corner in the middle of the busy intersection under brand new pavement.
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Offer to put the line where he wants it for the fee of the expected income for the remainder of your professional career.
If he pays, invest the money, surrender your license and go into GIS.
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spledeus, post: 353452, member: 3579 wrote: Offer to put the line where he wants it for the fee of the expected income for the remainder of your professional career.
If he pays, invest the money, surrender your license and go into GIS.
I got a better idea…hack into the County GIS system and put the parcel line where he wants. There I fixed it.
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Dave Karoly, post: 353456, member: 94 wrote: I got a better idea…hack into the County GIS system and put the parcel line where he wants. There I fixed it.
Lol nice!
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Found the irrefutable evidence today.
Not much left of it after the years of being chipped up and paved over and chipped up and paved over but there is the N 1/2 section 21 that proves the guys house is off. These typically have a brass triangle in concrete with the sections divided stamped into it, such as 16/21. Matched calcs to a couple hundredths each way…. should have just chipped it up in the first place.
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There is something very satisfying in finding that original monument in the expected location.
There is also something very irritating about seeing that the local agency has not put in any effort to preserve and perpetuate that monument.
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skwyd, post: 356353, member: 6874 wrote: There is something very satisfying in finding that original monument in the expected location.
There is also something very irritating about seeing that the local agency has not put in any effort to preserve and perpetuate that monument.
In my area at least 60% of our section corners are in the middle of busy intersections like this one. Luckily this one was not very deep and the traffic was light. Even in the rural areas there are cutouts that are almost a foot deep in paved streets. In town, forget about it. Also, the majority of places in southeast Florida are all subdivisions and the work is done inside as a lot and block and only if we are on the boundary of the parcel is there a needed tie to the section corner. In fact, as haphazard as some of these places are I would not be surprised if the whole subdivision is off a little here and there.
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McCracker, post: 356442, member: 9299 wrote: In my area at least 60% of our section corners are in the middle of busy intersections like this one. Luckily this one was not very deep and the traffic was light. Even in the rural areas there are cutouts that are almost a foot deep in paved streets. In town, forget about it. Also, the majority of places in southeast Florida are all subdivisions and the work is done inside as a lot and block and only if we are on the boundary of the parcel is there a needed tie to the section corner. In fact, as haphazard as some of these places are I would not be surprised if the whole subdivision is off a little here and there.
Yeah our road system was pretty much built on the section lines. And as the urban areas sprawled out into the rural areas, the roads were improved and built up. And, if all was done properly, the existing section corners and 1/4 corners (which are now all on centerline) were perpetuated with a nice chain of maps showing how it was done. In a lot of places, a monument well has been installed to provide relatively easy access to the monument. Of course, that doesn’t stop traffic. That takes a red sign and an orange vest and someone with the bravery (stupidity?) to hold that sign up right in front of a commuter with their cup of coffee in hand and getting them to stop their Toyota Camry right there and not run over the person kneeling down in the road opening up the monument well.
Personally, I like that job. I LOVE seeing the drivers get all tense during their commute because “some surveyor” is holding up traffic!
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My favorite annoyed drivers are the ones in the residential area that act like they have never had to drive around something before. Hands up and waving at my I-man like “WHERE DO I GO?!?” as I politely guide him or her around the cones with 5′ on each side of the vehicle. I wish my county would take the time to put all of that information together as well as a monument well for future surveyors. We are left with a chisel and hammer.
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One of my first jobs after licensure I had found almost all the monuments on a large parcel. After calculating the location of the missing monument I went to set it. Uhoh. Right in the middle of the adjoiner’s gravel drive. Oh well, let’s set it anyway and countersink it so no trouble with tires or grading. Pull the tape, get the alignment and start to dig out the countersink. Clink!!!! A 2 inch iron pipe with no signature on the Schonstedt. HOOORAYYY!!!!!
Andy
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Doesn’t that just make you want to pitch that thing about as far as you can? Invisible to detection.
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skwyd, post: 356444, member: 6874 wrote: Yeah our road system was pretty much built on the section lines. And as the urban areas sprawled out into the rural areas, the roads were improved and built up. And, if all was done properly, the existing section corners and 1/4 corners (which are now all on centerline) were perpetuated with a nice chain of maps showing how it was done. In a lot of places, a monument well has been installed to provide relatively easy access to the monument. Of course, that doesn’t stop traffic. That takes a red sign and an orange vest and someone with the bravery (stupidity?) to hold that sign up right in front of a commuter with their cup of coffee in hand and getting them to stop their Toyota Camry right there and not run over the person kneeling down in the road opening up the monument well.
Personally, I like that job. I LOVE seeing the drivers get all tense during their commute because “some surveyor” is holding up traffic!
I guess things are different in your State. Try to do that in WA and your asking for not only the potential of a $25,000 fine but an infraction with the OSHA?WISHA folks and a hefty insurance hike, if not flat our dismal by your insurance.
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The initial post as well as all of the replies above, regardless of content, makes me ecstatic we only work in the construction/production housing industry. Less stress more money. 😉
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Be very careful out there working in the middle of the road. Anymore, people are blind to signs and cones. There is road work everywhere these days.
I recently helped a guy that was run over. He had traffic cones and was wearing a high vis. vest. A driver of a jacked up truck didn’t see him and pinned him under the pumpkin of the axle and drug him 20 feet before backing off the top of him.
I felt the short cones that surveyor’s typically carry are not sufficient and there should have been a look out watching his back.
In my mind there was enough blame to share between the two of them.
By the way, this was a gas station attendant not a surveyor.
An additional safety precaution that a surveyor could employ would be to set a bipod up near the work area and mount a flashing LED to the rod at a height that a driver could easily see.
I recently saw a white LED strobe light on a school bus recently and it really grabbed my attention quickly. -
I’ve met a lot of surveyors along the way who are very flippant towards the hazards of traffic. Personally I’m terrified working in the road with drivers zooming by, probably the lasting result of watching a childhood friend get hit by a car on his bike and nearly losing both his legs and his life. I do it when I have to, but I don’t like it, not one bit.
Willy
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